R.I.P. Lead Generation Companies

[Silvertree]

I wanted to have an "honest exchange" with a couple of the lead generation companies on Remodel Crazy. It ain't gonna happen.

I never have seen a business vilified like the LGS's. And frankly I have spoken to a few of them lately and they lied right from the first sentence. I have not spoken to Service Magic lately and although I had in the past they were careful in their statements, friendly and conversational but we discussed nothing of their business practices.

No one on RC wants to have them on as a podcast or webinar and I can see why, so I'm dropping the whole thing.

I had done some testing of the services and they were doing no better than 2, 3, 4, years ago. I could find 3 people happy with them, but 2 of the businesses have no website and in the case of 1 LGS, the satisfied clients they referred to did not even exist. I tried internet, Yellow Pages and White Pages and could find no such businesses.

I can't say for certain if any of these companies are dishonest, but I can sure find plenty of unhappy homeowners and contractors.

If an opportunity comes up to have a 2020 type show I'll let you know, but I would want to ask some hard questions now, and there is no way they would agree to that.

[TulsaRemodeler]

The basic idea of a lead generation company is messed up from the get go. Its somebody wanting to make a buck off the back of people that actually do things, and off of customers. Its an idea that stinks. Only Hacks and desperate contractors gravitate towards them. Its a slimefest. IMHO

[Silvertree]

Yeah, I agree with all you said, I just thought it would have been an interesting thing to try and do.

How about interview ideas?

[naptownCr]

I have my flame suit on
I think there is a place for them.
Specialty contractors seem to have good sucess.
General Remodelers not so much.
The problem is the people who run them are not contractors and never will be.
If a service was set up that severly and honestly limited the number of times it sold a lead and only to bona fide screened contractors the opinions may be different.
The concept isn't bad but the way it is run is

[TulsaRemodeler]

Specialty contractors seem to have good sucess.
I dont think its a bad idea for this. But I'm more inclined to think a referal service (owned and oped by contractors) is a better idea.

[naptownCr]

I dont think its a bad idea for this. But I'm more inclined to think a referal service (owned and oped by contractors) is a better idea.

You may be on to something here
Perhaps a lead cooperative Owned and operated by contractors.
Sometimes you scare me Tulsa

[Silvertree]

Rory and I talked about that, but then everyone would be pissed at us.

We still bring it up on occasion, if RC had enough HO's to make it work, but how would charge for the service?
Monthly fee
% of sale

If you sell the leads outright there's gonna be trouble

[TulsaRemodeler]

I had all this mapped out a few years ago. Let me do some remembering. And it has been done before. First time I saw a version of it was in Nashville TN.

[naptownCr]

Like Milo Minderbinder in Catch 22 but it's a corporation and everyone has a share. You want in you buy a share.
Leads are placed on an open forum such as this and contractors get to look at the lead (without contact info) and choose if they wish to purchase. If so they purchase once it is sold the predetermined # times it is removed.
Auto e mail follow up with HO if satisfied with contractors if no re posted with disclaimer that it has been purchased before and contractors rejected. Everyone who is a member shares in the profits.

[TulsaRemodeler]

Like Milo Minderbinder in Catch 22 but it's a corporation and everyone has a share. You want in you buy a share.
Leads are placed on an open forum such as this and contractors get to look at the lead (without contact info) and choose if they wish to purchase. If so they purchase once it is sold the predetermined # times it is removed.
Auto e mail follow up with HO if satisfied with contractors if no re posted with disclaimer that it has been purchased before and contractors rejected. Everyone who is a member shares in the profits.
No, it is hand built slowly from real pro's and a good ol boy system. A non profit organization. You live and die by your work.

[naptownCr]

More random thoughts on this subject:
Start in a City where RC has a reasonable presence like Indianapolis or DC where there a higher concentration of members.
Franchise the concept It will reduce the work one or two people will have to do and create a local presence.
More to come

[Silvertree]

Doomed from the start.
Non profit, then who works it? Who pushes it?

I posted this on the main forum thinking a homeowner might chime in, but the HO's don't join here. I'd like to hear their perspective.

I think a monthly fee for business services which includes leads make a lot of sense. For profit, who the hell would spend the hours needed to fine tune this and qualify people if they didn't see an opportunity.

The problem with having no leader is you don't go anywhere. I didn't say boss, I said leader. It doesn't matter who it is, just matters that things move forward.

[TulsaRemodeler]

More random thoughts on this subject:
Start in a City where RC has a reasonable presence like Indianapolis or DC where there a higher concentration of members.
Franchise the concept It will reduce the work one or two people will have to do and create a local presence.
More to come

Good so far...

[TulsaRemodeler]

Doomed from the start.
Non profit, then who works it? Who pushes it?

I posted this on the main forum thinking a homeowner might chime in, but the HO's don't join here. I'd like to hear their perspective.

I think a monthly fee for business services which includes leads make a lot of sense. For profit, who the hell would spend the hours needed to fine tune this and qualify people if they didn't see an opportunity.

The problem with having no leader is you don't go anywhere. I didn't say boss, I said leader. It doesn't matter who it is, just matters that things move forward.
Not saying not paid. Just saying non profit. For example, you turn in a lead that another member sells. You get paid. The organization doesnt other then operating cost.

[naptownCr]

Doomed from the start.
Non profit, then who works it? Who pushes it?

I posted this on the main forum thinking a homeowner might chime in, but the HO's don't join here. I'd like to hear their perspective.

I think a monthly fee for business services which includes leads make a lot of sense. For profit, who the hell would spend the hours needed to fine tune this and qualify people if they didn't see an opportunity.

The problem with having no leader is you don't go anywhere. I didn't say boss, I said leader. It doesn't matter who it is, just matters that things move forward.

Who said anything about non profit?
A coop yes which is designed to make money and pay it's employees yes.
A coop which the member contractors own a piece and get a return on their time and effort why not? Kinda like buying stock in any company. Also will spread start up costs over a larger base.

[WarnerConstInc.]

I got some leads to sell....

[Silvertree]

Remodel Crazy started forming roundtables, in the Twin Cities we got 5 people interested. Roundtables would grow RC. Plus it would provide support for members.

I owned a franchise and can tell you from experience that we don't have the million dollars for marketing and lawyers to draw up an offering. On top of that franchises suck for the home improvement business, too many variables unless you sell vinyl windows or tub liners, they work, but not very well. Just ask Case, they have resold their franchises just to keep the numbers steady.

[TulsaRemodeler]

Remodel Crazy started forming roundtables, in the Twin Cities we got 5 people interested. Roundtables would grow RC. Plus it would provide support for members.

I owned a franchise and can tell you from experience that we don't have the million dollars for marketing and lawyers to draw up an offering. On top of that franchises suck for the home improvement business, too many variables unless you sell vinyl windows or tub liners, they work, but not very well. Just ask Case, they have resold their franchises just to keep the numbers steady.
Roundtables is a good concept to build off of.

[Silvertree]

What were talking about is good stuff. I say just keep the conversation going and some things will spin out of it.

Blue had a good idea, what about an award or certificate from Remodel Crazy that could be used to separate us from other companies, kind of an achievement? Only thing Blue didn't like was using the Remodel Crazy name for the award, if the members were known for doing better work that wouldn't be an issue.

All worth considering.

[naptownCr]

Remodel Crazy started forming roundtables, in the Twin Cities we got 5 people interested. Roundtables would grow RC. Plus it would provide support for members.

I owned a franchise and can tell you from experience that we don't have the million dollars for marketing and lawyers to draw up an offering. On top of that franchises suck for the home improvement business, too many variables unless you sell vinyl windows or tub liners, they work, but not very well. Just ask Case, they have resold their franchises just to keep the numbers steady.

Don't need to ask I lived it.
And yes there have been some sub par franchisees.
BTW In the time I competed against or worked for them they went from a 3 mil a year Co to almost 100 mil by franchising and branding.
And do you think they had Millions to invest to get it going?
I am talking about a geurilla marketing, lead generation organization. Led by the people who use the service. Not dictated to from above.

[TulsaRemodeler]

What were talking about is good stuff. I say just keep the conversation going and some things will spin out of it.

Blue had a good idea, what about an award or certificate from Remodel Crazy that could be used to separate us from other companies, kind of an achievement? Only thing Blue didn't like was using the Remodel Crazy name for the award, if the members were known for doing better work that wouldn't be an issue.

All worth considering.
Maybe Blue builds like shit, just saying :builder2:. I see local chapters being better then larger regional.

[Blue]

Maybe Blue builds like shit, just saying

You must of had a peek at my job photo album.

[Silvertree]

Local, grassroots however you call it.

Were all fiercely independent, and I support that, but when there's a war to fight ya gotta band together.

RC groups in all areas could be a good and effective way to help our businesses.

Naptown, Case did have a million to promote the franchise. And it ain't gonna make it. I know 2 Case franchise owners, both now wish they had not done it.

[Blue]

What were talking about is good stuff. I say just keep the conversation going and some things will spin out of it.

Blue had a good idea, what about an award or certificate from Remodel Crazy that could be used to separate us from other companies, kind of an achievement? Only thing Blue didn't like was using the Remodel Crazy name for the award, if the members were known for doing better work that wouldn't be an issue.

All worth considering.

Well it should be mentioned that if Remodel Crazy as a globally recognized forum chooses to offer recognition awards to it's members, that it set parameters such as photo submission, client testimonials, etc.

I fully agree with Tulsa, if your submission does not meet the standards set forth by the governing body of RC then you do not receive the award. Try next month.

Many organizations give out awards and recognize businesses that excel. I see no reason this organization can't do it as well. To be honest there are some members in here right now that post some work that is beyond top notch.

[naptownCr]

That may have someting to do with the 6% of gross sales royalties. That may be OK if there is a national marketing plan in effect but is a huge burden to an industry where net profit runs only 6-8% and marketing is left to the local franchisee. I never said the system was perfect. The sales and management systems they had in place however were effective from a management perspective. Things have gotten worse since the downturn as they have had to move franchise support people to local business.

[Silvertree]

I would be interested in getting a submission criteria or menu, whatever you call it.

Tulsa, Blue?
Put up.........or

[naptownCr]

Local, grassroots however you call it.

Were all fiercely independent, and I support that, but when there's a war to fight ya gotta band together.

RC groups in all areas could be a good and effective way to help our businesses.

Naptown, Case did have a million to promote the franchise. And it ain't gonna make it. I know 2 Case franchise owners, both now wish they had not done it.

I am sorry to hear about them. I knew some of the owners also but can't remember Who was in the twin cities area. Whether the franchise system makes it is dependant on the support it gets from the corporate side of things. I would be curious to speak to them and get their take on things.

[Blue]

I would be interested in getting a submission criteria or menu, whatever you call it.

Tulsa, Blue?
Put up.........or

Well first the powers that be at Remodel Crazy need to detemine what type of awards they would like to present. They need to elect a panel to judge and govern the selection. You could award on Best outdoor feature. Best kitchen under 40k, Outstanding ethics or integrity. Best bath, outstanding bath, etc.

I think it would be fair to charge for submission. I could see it getting out of hand, but if you have an outstanding project that you feel might make the cut then you pay to have submitted for judging. I don't work for free, and if Paul is calling someones client and varifying this and varifying that then he should be paid for his time.

[naptownCr]

Well first the powers that be at Remodel Crazy need to detemine what type of awards they would like to present. They need to elect a panel to judge and govern the selection. You could award on Best outdoor feature. Best kitchen under 40k, Outstanding ethics or integrity. Best bath, outstanding bath, etc.

Just mirror the COTY awards

[ChrWright]

There are questions and answers I think would be incredibly productive, but I'm not sure we'll all be as candid as would be necessary given this section is out in the open.

As for an independent/co-op lead service--there are far too few of us to make it worthwhile.

NARI has developed a lead website for its members as part of their most recent marketing program. I sat in on their marketing meeting 2 weeks ago, where they outlined their recent efforts and results. It's not taking millions...but it's not chump change either.

[TulsaRemodeler]

No awards, thats more BS stuff. I mean strong referalls between dudes that deliver. No BS.

[nEighter]

small groups of networked people who are not in said trade would be the best. That way no stepping on toes, erry one gets some quality leads, and all the while they solidify what each member does.. I give a lead to paul for the kitchen, rory for an addition, Leo gets custom cabinets, modern.. the gal who likes latex horse whips and eating outta dog dishes.. we all win! I would have to get the painting on those jobs though :sneaky sneaky:

[Blue]

No awards, thats more BS stuff. I mean strong referalls between dudes that deliver. No BS.

Tulsa you are one of the rare individuals that are able to design on the fly, and have stated that you have a genious IQ. I would think your print advertising would look great if you could state "Best Design Award Winner" on your ad.

No?

[Silvertree]

Lead services are trouble regardless of who is promoting them. I doubt anyone will come up with a model for the masses that has a high satisfaction rating.

NARI in taking lead generation to its members will be walking a tightrope. It may be a good move, but time will tell.

Yes there are too few of us and RC won't spend any money pursuing this, likely some leads will trickle in if we figure how to get HO's here on the DIY area, but nothing yet.

I think the best way for RC to fail is to begin a lead program, but the RC roundtables can serve as a support organization for its members where NARI and NAHB have no presense, which is most of the country.

RC is only a few months old, we gotta walk before we can run. But as some of you have mentioned, its taking a lot of time to manage even this small forum.

We are going to make changes around the holidays. Should be a little more organized by then.

[Blue]

Sidenote: I have tried almost all of the LGS and they don't fit for me. I did however say yes to a new outfit that is a little different. They put up a website for me with a dedicated phone number on it. They charge 49 bucks to set up the website for me. It is always on top of just about every search I come up with.

The way it works is this. If someone visits this site and calls me (all these calls are recorded) for an estimate I pay 22 bucks. Thats about the best I've found out there price wise.

[naptownCr]

Sidenote: I have tried almost all of the LGS and they don't fit for me. I did however say yes to a new outfit that is a little different. They put up a website for me with a dedicated phone number on it. They charge 49 bucks to set up the website for me. It is always on top of just about every search I come up with.

The way it works is this. If someone visits this site and calls me (all these calls are recorded) for an estimate I pay 22 bucks. Thats about the best I've found out there price wise.

Being different and thinking outside the box is what I was talking about

[TulsaRemodeler]

Tulsa you are one of the rare individuals that are able to design on the fly, and have stated that you have a genious IQ. I would think your print advertising would look great if you could state "Best Design Award Winner" on your ad.

No?
Barely genius IQ when I'm not drinking my ass into oblivion. I'm not bigtime successfull either. Starting over and barely getting by. I would never call myself best anything, oops yeah I would. I'm crazy like that, but it changes cause I'm crazy.

[Mike(VA)]

This is a company that I am going to go with and see what happens. $195 to join, $50 per month, no charge for leads. I pay a percentage of the job, (varies on size). They pre-screen customers as well as contractors. Rory is familiar with them also.

http://www.urbanreferrals.com/

[Blue]

This is a company that I am going to go with and see what happens. $195 to join, $50 per month, no charge for leads. I pay a percentage of the job, (varies on size). They pre-screen customers as well as contractors. Rory is familiar with them also.

http://www.urbanreferrals.com/

Thats got to be a local gig. We have one here like that except its not a frachise, she is independent with no monthly fee but a stiff 15% comish

[fez-head]

I have always thought commercial maintenance and repair leads are where its at. I have been looking for years and have never found a lead service to provide them. The closest I have gotten to a "lead type service" is national maintenance companies and they are a PIA to work with and never pay on time.

Chain Stores and Franchise Restaurants are in every City and State and are excellent for repeat business. To be honest Franchise Restaurants have been my bread and butter (excuse the pun) for years and are what get us through most winters.

[Eieio]

Thats got to be a local gig. We have one here like that except its not a frachise, she is independent with no monthly fee but a stiff 15% comish


it is local.. It is operated in the DC area and now in Denver.. The % is not as high but the leads are very good, the customers are well screened and the process is well laid out.

[J F]

I don't know if it was mentioned earlier, but I think the quality of leads from any service would be greatly improved if the homeowner had some skin in the game.

Something like $19.99 or $29.99 to have 3 or 4 professional contractors contact them regarding their project. Right now it's just way too easy and cheap for bored h/o's to "click and submit"....no sweat off their back, they can do this 100 times with absolutely no down side for them, they're just curious about "how much"?

Any charge (even Leo's $1 fee) is going to go a loooong way towards legitimizing the leads.

[fez-head]

[QUOTE=J F;26017]I don't know if it was mentioned earlier, but I think the quality of leads from any service would be greatly improved if the homeowner had some skin in the game. QUOTE]

Your damn right. :2thumbsup:

I am trying to beat this into Shelly's head for the Travel Agency as well. Some people use her research and book online or with another agent using the information that she spent hours collecting. :smash:

[J F]

That's always been my biggest pet peeve regarding this industry...that as contractors, our time is perceived by so many to have no value, especially at the "bidding":rolleyes3: stage.

A 30 minute meet and greet along with all the necessary info (lic, insurance, referrals etc) should be the end of the "giveaway" imo....life's too short to try and procure projects from anyone who will not value your time after that.

But that's just me.

[Eieio]

That's always been my biggest pet peeve regarding this industry...that as contractors, our time is perceived by so many to have no value, especially at the "bidding":rolleyes3: stage.

A 30 minute meet and greet along with all the necessary info (lic, insurance, referrals etc) should be the end of the "giveaway" imo....life's too short to try and procure projects from anyone who will not value your time after that.

But that's just me.


This is why i CHARGE EVERYBODY for an estimate.. I am going to keep repeating this til everyone does it..

[ModernStyle]

This is why i CHARGE EVERYBODY for an estimate.. I am going to keep repeating this til everyone does it..

I am in too small of a market with too much competition to be able to charge for estimates. It is the same with with a Lead service, I wont get enough ROI to justify paying the same monthly fee as someone in a bigger community.
The general perception of painting is that anyone can do it, which to a degree is true, but I am yet to see a hack or HO who can match my quality. I do perfect work, my lines are razor sharp and my trim looks like glass. With that being said, there are still many HO's who have the illusion that they are good painters when they are not, hell many of the contractors who claim to be good painters are not.
As a painter I think that you would have to have one hell of a reputation and be only working on the highest end homes to be able to charge for an estimate, the average guy needing his kitchen repainted is not gonna throw me $100 to just come take a look when there are 35 other contractors in the phone book who will look for free.
I already lose plenty of jobs these days to lowballers and hacks, charging for estimates for me would be putting the final nail in the coffin.
Now you could say that I should only aim for the higher quality jobs that I mentioned above, and sure I would love to, but I am in a small market and there just isnt enough to stay afloat by doing that.

[J F]

I can see where it would be more difficult (and it can be difficult any way) for smaller projects, especially if it's stuff you can quote while you're out on your first visit. Are you able to quote a lot of your stuff on the initial visit?

I'm going to be concentrating on smaller carpentry/cabinetry projects in the new year when I start advertising again, so it will be interesting to see how it goes charging for quotes.

I'm guessing most of these smaller projects will still require a little bit of drawing work and none of them will be quoted on the spot so I'll still be trying to charge something, even if it's $39-99 instead of 1k-2.5k that I've done in the past for basement quotes.

Even if it's a "loss leader", I will still want to try it first, to help with the pre-qualifying.

[J F]

I have done 1 "free":smash: estimate in the past few years, for a tiny project just around the corner for me...of course it was waaay more than they expected.:smash:

I had about a 45 min meet-n-greet/measure/pics and then emailed the quote with a follow-up phone discussion....oh well.

[Eieio]

I am in too small of a market with too much competition to be able to charge for estimates. It is the same with with a Lead service, I wont get enough ROI to justify paying the same monthly fee as someone in a bigger community.
The general perception of painting is that anyone can do it, which to a degree is true, but I am yet to see a hack or HO who can match my quality. I do perfect work, my lines are razor sharp and my trim looks like glass. With that being said, there are still many HO's who have the illusion that they are good painters when they are not, hell many of the contractors who claim to be good painters are not.
As a painter I think that you would have to have one hell of a reputation and be only working on the highest end homes to be able to charge for an estimate, the average guy needing his kitchen repainted is not gonna throw me $100 to just come take a look when there are 35 other contractors in the phone book who will look for free.
I already lose plenty of jobs these days to lowballers and hacks, charging for estimates for me would be putting the final nail in the coffin.
Now you could say that I should only aim for the higher quality jobs that I mentioned above, and sure I would love to, but I am in a small market and there just isnt enough to stay afloat by doing that.

I have heard this excuse about no one else charging to many times.. Hell most of the guys here don't charge either.. I do..

Start with 20-30 bucks on the next couple of calls and see what happens... What do you have to loose?? The jobs that you are already loosing to the hacks..

You will be surprised how they respond when you tell them you charge a fee for the visit

[J F]

And no one at all around here charges that I'm aware of, I mean nobody....all you see is "FREE estimates" advertised all over the place, but I've never even heard of anyone else not doing them.

Now I didn't just decide to start charging for estimates one day, I took about a year (2003) to get proficient in chief arch., learning the program while doing "free" estimates:smash:,

After I felt proficient enough, I started charging, sometime in 2004. And yeah of course, got a LOT of shocked/appalled reactions...I mean, how dare I charge for my time when everyone else is giving it away...the NERVE. :censored:

But it's worked out for me (I've been out of the working loop this year due to surgeries), it will be interesting to see how it goes next year.

[Century Man]

This is a company that I am going to go with and see what happens. $195 to join, $50 per month, no charge for leads. I pay a percentage of the job, (varies on size). They pre-screen customers as well as contractors. Rory is familiar with them also.

http://www.urbanreferrals.com/

They've changed their price structure since I tried them with no success. They already have their preferred contractors so all I got was the crap leads.

[Absolute Basements]

I think a lot of small referrral based companies expect a SM generated lead to have the same value as a referral. Something along the lines of the easy girl in high school.
I worked as a window and enclosure salesperson for the two largest companies in the nation for about 5 years. You knew going out the lead was going to require real work to close. You also knew you had to 1 call close or you were done with the lead. The rehash people would clean up on your effort if the people bought when they contacted them. Or your competitor would close them.
I'm not defending anyone or anybody, merely an observation that a sales process may need to be tweaked for a generated lead over a referral. Adapting is what we do best.
Darren