Another question about lights

[Harry]

Thanks to all of you for the help with my painting problem. I have another one, but I hope it is simple. About 6 months ago, we had some work done in our basement like fixing some bad drywall on the ceiling and walls, new wood around the edges, and stuff like that. One of the things we wanted done was some recessed lights, like 4 of them. Well, we needed to keep the overall cost down, so we didn't get the lights done by the contractor took off $400 from the total.

Now we are looking to maybe put the lights in now since my wife, the outspoken one, still says its to dark in there. Well, I called him back and he says it will be $650 for 4 lights. He says that it would have been cheaper to do it when he was there before. That just doesn't seem right. Its only 4 lights. How much work is there to do that and why does it cost more now? Haven't all prices gone down?

So my question is this. Does that seem right? Is he trying to get extra money from me? How could I talk him down a bit? Any help will be nice. Thanks again.

[TulsaRemodeler]

Thanks to all of you for the help with my painting problem. I have another one, but I hope it is simple. About 6 months ago, we had some work done in our basement like fixing some bad drywall on the ceiling and walls, new wood around the edges, and stuff like that. One of the things we wanted done was some recessed lights, like 4 of them. Well, we needed to keep the overall cost down, so we didn't get the lights done by the contractor took off $400 from the total.

Now we are looking to maybe put the lights in now since my wife, the outspoken one, still says its to dark in there. Well, I called him back and he says it will be $650 for 4 lights. He says that it would have been cheaper to do it when he was there before. That just doesn't seem right. Its only 4 lights. How much work is there to do that and why does it cost more now? Haven't all prices gone down?

So my question is this. Does that seem right? Is he trying to get extra money from me? How could I talk him down a bit? Any help will be nice. Thanks again.
There are a few variables to this such as where these 4 lights would be tied into, existing swich? new switch? Definetly more work to install them after the fact but couldnt tell you how much more. I've seen some pricey recessed lights, do you know how much they were?

[sparkydave]

Retrofit pots work good if you can get wiring between lights. Definitely it would have been preferable to rough in the wiring before the ceiling went up. It's a lot easier to locate ceiling joist before painting. You could be into drywall repair if there is difficulty getting wiring from switch to lights. He may be using better quality lights, homeowners love 3" pots, 6 to a box on sale at Home Depot. My guess is, he's fair in his pricing, and contractor's overhead hasn't gone down, or the value of his experience.

We've all learned something here, right?

[Harry]

Thank you Tulsaremodeler. We have one light in the center now with some lamps on the tables. The light on the ceiling is from one switch by the stairs and last time he said he would just connect the new ones to that. So we would have 5 total. We told him some we had seen at Home Depot looked good and I think that is what he was going to use.

[Ed The Roofer]

You have allowed yourself to fall for the common mis-perception of economics and the true market-place.

Everything was readily at hand at the time of the initial installation and now the contractor has to retrofit new lights into an existing situation. That alone is more time consuming than had it been done at the original time frame. Just think about even one simple thing, where he probably had his equipment and tools already set up inside your home bewore and now he has to unload and reload them from the truck and bring them inside all over again.

Regardless of that simple fact though, even if you had called him out 1-2 days after the original work was completed, he now has a new mobilization charge, which means that he has to make XX amount of dollars before he charged his regular hourly rate, which only covers for the actual time of labor and insurance and other company overhead expenditures.

The only contractors who are doing things for less in this economy are those that are pricing themselves for going out of business.

Have the material costs gone down?

Does the worker need to still make the same amount of money to pay his mortgage?

Did his kids school tuition get decreased?

Will the company that he work for, even if he is a sole proprietor working alone be able to make less profit now to exist, or should they decide to lose money and possibly not keep up with their insurance payments, their office/shop rent, or their taxes?

So, even if all other expenses were the same as they were when they originally did the job, they now have a different day on their calendar that they must account for to make a small semblance of a profit, otherwise, why be in business?

Ed

[Harry]

I don't know what 'pots' are but it does make some sense about the wiring. Yes, he would have to cut some of the ceiling to get the wires to the lights but he will only patch the holes not paint. The room isn't too big maybe 12 feet by 14 feet. Maybe I could get him to paint the ceiling for the same price?

[Harry]

Wow! You guys type and respond fast. Thanks Ed I see that he will have extra costs but I just think his new price is high. Our income is not that much and everything now seems expensive. Maybe we will just wait unless you have some suggestions for him to lower his price a bit.

[Mike(VA)]

Harry, I hope you again come back to see more responses. Ed, sparky, and dog face are right. When he was there previously, with ceilings exposed or not yet repaired, there would have been a lot less work to do. Also, he was already there as Ed said. Now he has to recoup the costs of the estimate visit as well as all the costs associated with the new service.

If he can do it in one visit, that's a round trip more than he had to do before as well as a trip to the store to get the lights. I am fairly certain he would have tied that trip in with another last time. Also, maybe his insurance has gone up. maybe he had to replace his truck with a more expensive one and that raises his overhead. Last point, maybe he is trying to get a better return so he can stay in business. Just because he had jobs before doesn't mean he was doing well. There is no sin in profit.

You could try to talk to him about your situation. Most guys charge per light. Maybe he can drop to 3 lights and relocate the center light for you making 4. Well, that's if the center is a can light. Maybe he will take pity on you, maybe not. However, if you get him somehow to drop his price a lot, he will probably try to make it up somewhere. Could be cheaper materials, or a bad patch job. Be careful.

[Ed The Roofer]

Ask him directly if there is any Pre or Post work that you could do to get the cost a little bit lower.

One suggestion, is to tell him he doesn't have to do any of the clean up or disposal.

That will save him a few trips back and forth to his truck and then to the dumpster.

It may save you 50 Bucks or so for that task alone, plus he will then know you are serious about committing to give him the work.

Another tip to seek a discount, is to allow him to schedule the job whenever he has an off day or short day planned elsewhere, as long as you get advance notice. But, don't allow the flex schedule to be too far out in the future, so commit to anytime within the next month.

Now, you have provided him a way to fill in a possible gap in his schedule and make that day more productive.

See what he has to say though.

Ed

[Winchester]

If the ceiling was open before, it was a simple job. If it is drywalled now it's not just a matter of cutting holes in the drywall and putting lights in.

Lights need wires and it is a lot of work fishing wires through a ceiling with only the holes for the lights to do it in. He may even have to cut small holes (that will need to be patched after) in between depending on how far apart they are and which way the joists run.

I don't think you should be concerened about insurance going up, new trucks or his kid's college. It is more work so he is charging more money.

Like Ed said another factor is he was already there set up to do work and now he has to set up all over again.

(p.s. "pots" = recessed lights)

[sparkydave]

Wow! You guys type and respond fast. Thanks Ed I see that he will have extra costs but I just think his new price is high. Our income is not that much and everything now seems expensive. Maybe we will just wait unless you have some suggestions for him to lower his price a bit.

"Bad planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on mine"

If I were your electrical contractor, I'd lose your phone number unless I was really slow. You passed up on the opportunity to have lighting installed at the time of renovation; the time involved just doubled, so should his price because it's almost all labour. And he should paint???

That probably sounds mean, but why should the electrician pay for your poor judgement?? He's not likely rich either, judging by what I think his labour rates are. I charge $60. per hour, pay for 3 liscences and several insurances, taxes, etc. He's got to be less.

Dave

[Winchester]

Electricians around here are usually $70+ per hour
If they have an apprentice with them $70+ and $50+ per hour = $120+ per hour

[Blue]

Yes, he would have to cut some of the ceiling to get the wires to the lights but he will only patch the holes not paint.


That should more than double his price, and I would be carefull about letting the electrician patch drywall to a paint-ready finish.

[Blue]

I see that he will have extra costs but I just think his new price is high. Our income is not that much.

Well, it sounds like you may be house poor. Part of what is wrong with the economy right now is the fact that too many are purchasing beyond their means. This can be helpfull to the economy as long as it stays underneath the epidemic level. Either way, you can't expect someone else to pay for your bad fiscal and design plan.

[Blue]

Oh and I almost forgot. Welcome JB, uhhhhh I mean Harry HO!!! LOL

[TulsaRemodeler]

Thank you Tulsaremodeler. We have one light in the center now with some lamps on the tables. The light on the ceiling is from one switch by the stairs and last time he said he would just connect the new ones to that. So we would have 5 total. We told him some we had seen at Home Depot looked good and I think that is what he was going to use.
Youre gonna get some heckling over trying to get work cheaper, contractors are hammered (seems constantly these days) over price. It seems some people just dont understand all that it takes to lead up to a qualified guy that knows what he's doing standing on your doorstep ready to fix your stuff. Guys that know what their doing haul a$$, get things done 3-4 times faster (and better) then your local jackofalltrades,they have the tools and knowledge etc, so they actually earn that money.

[TulsaRemodeler]

...and dog face are right.
Thats not what the ladys call me Steinbeck. :rolleyes:

[Mike(VA)]

Thats not what the ladys call me Steinbeck. :rolleyes:

Whatever. Who, the beer chicks? http://www.thescubasite.com/smile/party/party0005.gif (http://www.thescubasite.com/Scuba-Diving-in-Australia/scuba-diving-in-osprey-reef)

[TulsaRemodeler]

Thats not what the ladys call me Steinbeck. :rolleyes:

Whatever. Who, the beer chicks? http://www.thescubasite.com/smile/party/party0005.gif (http://www.thescubasite.com/Scuba-Diving-in-Australia/scuba-diving-in-osprey-reef)

Your momma is a beer chick?

[Mike(VA)]

My momma is 81 and more into wine than beer. Beer chicks. The cute ones who drive golf carts delivering beer after the 9th hole.

[Blue]

My momma is 81.

Well she's a liar 'cause last night she told me she was only 59.

Sorry Mike, I couldn't stop myself.

[Mike(VA)]

You're sick. Or drunk. http://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/Drinks/party-drunk.gif (http://www.smileyshut.com/Smileys/Smiley-Huts-Free-Drinks-Smileys.html)

[Mike(VA)]

Boy, give a guy an outlet and he gets carried away. I hope we didn't scare Harry off. At least he sees we like to have fun once in a while.

[sparkydave]

say harry, i feel real bad about giving you a hard time about your little problem. Can I get mike holmes and some of the guys fromup here to help you out?
Think i might have dated your sister Heidi?

[uecker]

Harry,

Where you dealing with the General or the Electrician? ( Sounded like most of you scope of work was not for an electrician.)

If you are talking to the General contractor than the price sounds fair. I know you might not want to hear this, but Generals need to be paid for their time.

If you are dealing with the Electrician and there is not a duplication of effort involved, the increase should be a trip/setup charge, usually amounts to a one hour charge.

[naptownCr]

I think Harry is gone. Perhaps he learned a lesson perhaps not. Harry if you should stop back here there is a difference in cost between new construction and remodeling. When the ceiling was open and the contractor was there the cost to the contractor for 4 lights was substantially less than with the ceiling finished. The price he gave you for 4 lights fished into an existing ceiling including patching of drywall is a fair price. This is about 10 dollars more than I pay for recessed lights in new construction in the DC area. On top of that he is patching drywall. I do not feel he is ripping you off in the least. he is charging a fair price for the work involved. This will take him at least twice the time to complete now as it did when the ceiling was open. yet he is charging you only a fraction of the time and now he has to use remodeling fixtures instead of new construction fixtures which may cost more but will take more time to install.