EPA Hepa Vacuums

[Allrounder]

Found this while looking for a Hepa vac for lead dust, looks like neat stuff. Anybody have any experience with them?
http://www.dustlesstechnologies.com/index.htm

[Silvertree]

Under $500 for Osha approved. Not bad.

[Silvertree]

I've been buying Fein but burned out 3 of them, I think we'll get some decent vacs for under $500, Chris Wrigh or Allrounder, someone posted about some, I gotta look up that thread.

[dan-o]

Nilfisk is a brand that a trusted vendor of mine suggests.
They make standard and backpack HEPAs.

[WarnerConstInc.]

http://www.alto-online.com/

another with the Attix 8 and 12, plus others: http://www.ultimategarage.com/WAP.html

Attix 8 or 12. The bull crap behind that is, you can get the hepa attix 8, or the plain one,
add the hepa and it is the same thing. They say it is certified. BS.

Don't get me wrong, these vacs are used all over the world and many companies buy them and re-badge them, they are great vacs. Just make sure that you get the auto-on
tool power on the vac, I am sure you will need it.

I considered a Attix 8 before I bought my CT-22.

I don't really get it, all they require is hepa filtration down to .3 microns?
Almost all add-on hepa filters deliver those kinds of numbers.

Hence my jerked over craftsman vac with a bag and aftermarket filter.

Hell my vac has two hepa's in it.

[Allrounder]

found another place with dust collection products and hepa vacs. Never heard of these guys either.
http://www.dustmuzzle.com/index.php

[SLS-Construction]

http://www.alto-online.com/

another with the Attix 8 and 12, plus others: http://www.ultimategarage.com/WAP.html

Attix 8 or 12. The bull crap behind that is, you can get the hepa attix 8, or the plain one,
add the hepa and it is the same thing. They say it is certified. BS.

Don't get me wrong, these vacs are used all over the world and many companies buy them and re-badge them, they are great vacs. Just make sure that you get the auto-on
tool power on the vac, I am sure you will need it.

I considered a Attix 8 before I bought my CT-22.

I don't really get it, all they require is hepa filtration down to .3 microns?
Almost all add-on hepa filters deliver those kinds of numbers.

Hence my jerked over craftsman vac with a bag and aftermarket filter.

Hell my vac has two hepa's in it.

745.83
HEPA vacuum means a vacuum cleaner which has been designed with a high-efficiency particulate air (HEPA) filter as the last filtration stage. A HEPA filter is a filter that is capable of capturing particles of 0.3 microns with 99.97% efficiency. The vacuum cleaner must be designed so that all the air drawn into the machine is expelled through the HEPA filter with none of the air leaking past it.


Sorry guys, a shop vac with a hepa filter will not cut it as it was not designed as listed above

Warner I agree on the BS part

[WarnerConstInc.]

I think it boils down to having a bag and then hepa filters.

My ct-22 has a dust bag and 2 hepa's, it filters down to the .3 microns.

What about the tools? You really need a tool that was designed to be used with dust extraction. There are not alot of those out on the market.

Also going to need a vac that has an auto on tool socket on it, other wise it is inconvenient.

[angus242]

The dust container needs to be sealed to the motor.

The Festool is. So is my Bosch.....but I still lose! Needs to be 99.97% at .3 microns. The Bosch extractor is ONLY 99.93% at .3 microns. :thumbsdown:

[Leo G]

Those numbers are practically unrealistic. You might as well say 100%. Who is going to come along and say, sorry, your vacuum is letting .04% of the .3 micron particles through - YOU FAIL, here's your fine.

Did it actually say anything about the tools? So your vacuum is perfect but the tool only recovers 50%. Does it say somewhere in the new regulation that the tools have to be within compliance too?

[SLS-Construction]

745.85 Work Standards
(ii) The use of machines that remove lead-based paint through high speed operation such as sanding, grinding, power planing, needle gun, abrasive blasting, or sandblasting, is prohibited unless such machines are used with HEPA exhaust control.

745.227 (abatement)

(ii) Machine sanding or grinding or abrasive blasting or sandblasting of lead-based paint is prohibited unless used with High Efficiency Particulate Air (HEPA) exhaust control which removes particles of 0.3 microns or larger from the air at 99.97 percent or greater efficiency;

[angus242]

Those numbers are practically unrealistic. You might as well say 100%. Who is going to come along and say, sorry, your vacuum is letting .04% of the .3 micron particles through - YOU FAIL, here's your fine.

I understand the point but my fear would be that the Bosch extractor wouldn't be on the list of approved vacuums. If inspected, I would fail because of that, not the actual stats.

[Leo G]

I can see the price of all of this equipment tripling in cost in the very near future. You gotta have it so they can charge whatever because you gotta have it. Sounded like when they came out with mandated car insurance. For a while there the prices skyrocketed. Then the states had to come in and rein the insurance companies with price controls.

I can sooooo see that happening.

[WarnerConstInc.]

My 400 dollar rotex sander does the best job I have seen at collecting dust but, it probably averages 90-95% extraction, my ts-55 gets 90%+ depending on where the cut is (it gets less when you are trimming a slight amount).

I have all but made up my mind, no one around here has heard of the new rules, or is going to bother with it, straight from the horse's mouth at breakfast.
I am planning to work up till April, hopefully, then pack it up.

The % of post '78 houses in my area is less than 25%, and 75% of those house's are junk.
I am allready at the top of the price point around here and this mess will all but make it impossible to secure new work. No one, including the people that pull in 250k+ a year, are wanting to pay for any kind of quality work.

Look for a tool sale come April, because I am out.

[SLS-Construction]

Warner??? Festool easily meets the specs that I can find

The tools don't have to meet the specs, just be connected to a system that meets it (22 & 33's - filter at 99.99% is better than 99.97)

[WarnerConstInc.]

Warner??? Festool easily meets the specs that I can find

The tools don't have to meet the specs, just be connected to a system that meets it (22 & 33's - filter at 99.99% is better than 99.97)

I figured they did, Rick Bush at Festool is having the vacs and some of the tools tested by whoever does the testing for the epa. I think it is going to be a marketing campaign for them when the tests come back.

It still makes no difference around here, too many low rent, ex-trailer factory flunky's and people who just don't care.

The BI and the health department were pretty clueless when I talked to them about it.

The people that can afford the work all live in new million dollar houses.
The working class and upper management type folks are the one's that live in the older houses, and they all ready can't afford some of the work to begin with.

Around here, it is a no-win situation for the ho's and for me.
Honestly, it is not worth it to me, I am looking for other forms of employment and thinking about dumping 15k worth of Festool's.
At least I could live on that for a while.

[JasonW]

I figured they did, Rick Bush at Festool is having the vacs and some of the tools tested by whoever does the testing for the epa. I think it is going to be a marketing campaign for them when the tests come back.

It still makes no difference around here, too many low rent, ex-trailer factory flunky's and people who just don't care.

The BI and the health department were pretty clueless when I talked to them about it.

The people that can afford the work all live in new million dollar houses.
The working class and upper management type folks are the one's that live in the older houses, and they all ready can't afford some of the work to begin with.

Around here, it is a no-win situation for the ho's and for me.
Honestly, it is not worth it to me, I am looking for other forms of employment and thinking about dumping 15k worth of Festool's.
At least I could live on that for a while.

Keep this in mind Warner,

You've already met the standards in tool requirements. As conscientious as you are about dust collection and performance, your not very far off from doing what you've always done to be Certified and Compliant. In this case you can separate yourself from you competition with the EPA Cert. backing it.

Sell the fact that you've already been using this type of technology for years and because of that, it won't affect your overhead as much as others.

[PA Woodbutcher]

My 400 dollar rotex sander does the best job I have seen at collecting dust but, it probably averages 90-95% extraction, my ts-55 gets 90%+ depending on where the cut is (it gets less when you are trimming a slight amount).

I have all but made up my mind, no one around here has heard of the new rules, or is going to bother with it, straight from the horse's mouth at breakfast.
I am planning to work up till April, hopefully, then pack it up.

The % of post '78 houses in my area is less than 25%, and 75% of those house's are junk.
I am allready at the top of the price point around here and this mess will all but make it impossible to secure new work. No one, including the people that pull in 250k+ a year, are wanting to pay for any kind of quality work.

Look for a tool sale come April, because I am out.

I'm sitting on the same fence. No one around here has heard anything about it either. I have work until May that will be unaffected. Guess I'll wait and see what pops up in the spring. The majority of my work is on 100 year old houses.

[JasonW]

I'm sitting on the same fence. No one around here has heard anything about it either. I have work until May that will be unaffected. Guess I'll wait and see what pops up in the spring. The majority of my work is on 100 year old houses.

Same here. Today I spent some time at my insurance agents office, they were interested in my quandary about who will back me up in this new division of construction as far as false claims to lead poisoning for wrong practices of this new rule. They sat at attention.

I also talked with my banker and asked if they knew they where required to take these steps when they renovate or remodel a forclosed property for re-sale, he sat at attention.

From there I went to the local paper and told them of the affects on the economy being that we have a large amount of contractors in the area and that 90% of the homes in the area are pre 1978. The more I spoke, the further his chin came closer to the ground.

The good guys have a lot of work to do to spread the news. Don't get discouraged with the ignorant responses that are sure to come from lazy Contractors and Handymen. People will get it soon enough. be a leader, not a quitter.

[WarnerConstInc.]

Hard to be a leader, when you can't get anyone to pay for it.

I have about 4 weeks of stuff to do, in the mean time I am actively looking for something else to do.

[JasonW]

My point is that you're already a leader and this won't be as much of a set back for you as you think.

[WarnerConstInc.]

I know what you mean Jason.

I also know this area has been affected with the plague of pick-up trucks and ladder rack guys. At least a couple of them ended up setting some houses on fire.

I guess they figured out there is a reason why a light fixture says 25w max bulbs.

[JasonW]

I've had my head way into this thing today. The rule keeps stating that you need to use a hepa vac for clean up whether it be during renovations or final clean up. I don't understand why you couldn't use a regular shop vac during the course of construction if you have to contain the area anyway. Why not just designate it for final cleaning?

As long as I'm emptying the shop vac into a plastic bag within the containment area and whipping off the dust from the outside of the bag I'm still complying, no?

[SLS-Construction]

Jason - where do you see that it needs to be used during renovation, with the exception of using sanders, etc... It is only mentioned there & in the final cleanup, or did I miss something?

[JasonW]

It doesn't say that specifically. It keeps referring to non Hepa Vacs not being as efficient as Hepa Vacs when cleaning up lead based paints. It also keeps referring to OSHA's rules that are already in affect when dealing with lead paint.

When I see OSHA involved, I have to assume it's got to mean it should be used in the containment area as well for the protection of the workers.

I'm going to dig for OSHA's rule next, that should be a nightmare! lol

[SLS-Construction]

Funny - OSHA is only mentioned once in the reg & that falls under a training requirement.

I have personally started ignoring the EPA's pages & simply refer to the regulation only. Why? The regulation hasn't changed & if you follow what is on the EPA's pages or even there training manual, they won't guarantee you that you are compliant. I have seen pages change twice in the same day & still contradict the regulation - finally a few days later, guess what? they got it right.

As for using a shop vac being less efficient - that's a load of bull for the most part. Granted, if there is a lot of dust in the air I wouldn't want to use a shop vac as it will kick up the dust big time. If there are a bunch of paint chips I would prefer to use the shop vac & save the bag in the HEPA for the actual dust.

OSHA & the local regs are going to be a kicker for many folks.

[WarnerConstInc.]

If the area is plastic off, why not broom clean and the suck up the left overs with a hepa?

[JasonW]

Funny - OSHA is only mentioned once in the reg & that falls under a training requirement.


OSHA & the local regs are going to be a kicker for many folks.

"OSHA" comes up 17 times in my search and "OSHA's" come up another 7 times. They seem to agree with the OSHA standards in many cases and basically, if OSHA bust's you for one of these infringements you be fined by the EPA on top of that!

I think it referred to the Vacs at least twice. I just found the links so I'll start looking...

[SLS-Construction]

Guys & Gals - as a reminder the regulation found on the EPA's site is outdated

For the current & correct regulations you should to go to the e-CFR site (Electronic Code of Federal Regulations) provided by the GPO

http://tinyurl.com/yg3v7ep - link directly to the full reg or you can browse to it
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/ --- Title 40 --- Volume 30 --- Part 745

[WarnerConstInc.]

here is what I can find on hepa certified filters

First, when looking at the filter, all HEPA filters available on the market are not the same. This is evident in many HEPA air cleaners, whereby companies use "HEPA-like", "Bio-HEPA", or "True" HEPA filter. These filters may or may not use HEPA media (which is typically 99.97% efficient at .3 microns), and a HEPA filter is as much about the means in which the media is sealed within the filter as it is about the media. Even if a filter has HEPA media, if it is not sealed within the frame and tested so that there is no bypass, the actual efficiency will be much less. Individually certified HEPA filters, whereby the HEPA manufacturer scans each filter and certifies the efficiency (there is a label on each filter with the test results), are the only filters assured to perform at HEPA efficiency. However, it is much more expensive to individually test HEPA filters, and this is why most air cleaner manufacturers use "HEPA-type" filters and market them as "true" HEPA.

[dan-o]

The important difference is that a 'real' HEPA vac also filters the exhaust air, if I remember correctly.

[WarnerConstInc.]

The important difference is that a 'real' HEPA vac also filters the exhaust air, if I remember correctly.

The hepa's are the last stage for the exit of the exhaust air.

[vpllc]

As far as using a regular shop vac, you can use in within the containment area, but the entire vacuum must be within the containment area so the exhaust does not blow outside of the contained area. At least, that is what the instructor said.

[JasonW]

Here's a link to the beater bar attachment from Festool.

"Festool Power Tools (USA)
@Jason, we have a Turbo Suction Brush attachment which is suction-powered that can meet this requirement (450 644)."

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/dust-extractors/floor-nozzles/turbo-suction-brush-450644.html

[Bodger]

That attachment is about $100. I guess we add that to the cost of being in compliance.

[JasonW]

That attachment is about $100. I guess we add that to the cost of being in compliance.

Yes, and it will only work with one of their vacuum kits.

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/dust-extractors/cleaning-sets/tradesman-installer-cleaning-set-454766.html

[Allrounder]

Here's a link to the beater bar attachment from Festool.

"Festool Power Tools (USA)
@Jason, we have a Turbo Suction Brush attachment which is suction-powered that can meet this requirement (450 644)."

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/dust-extractors/floor-nozzles/turbo-suction-brush-450644.html

Yes, and it will only work with one of their vacuum kits.

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/dust-extractors/cleaning-sets/tradesman-installer-cleaning-set-454766.html

I forked out the money and got a CT22, the beater bar, and the kit that Jason linked to. So far, they have performed great. The down side is that I have to fork out the money all over again to get another set in order to use these attachments on both lead and non-lead projects. :mad:

[JasonW]

Why not just clean them off site when you're done with them? Once that stuff gets back to my shop, there is no more RRP rule. Hell, I can blow it out with an air attachment if I wanted to. Just can't do that at the customers house.

(Maybe I'm missing something?)

[WarnerConstInc.]

What a great vac.

[JasonW]

I've had my head way into this thing today. The rule keeps stating that you need to use a hepa vac for clean up whether it be during renovations or final clean up. I don't understand why you couldn't use a regular shop vac during the course of construction if you have to contain the area anyway. Why not just designate it for final cleaning?

As long as I'm emptying the shop vac into a plastic bag within the containment area and whipping off the dust from the outside of the bag I'm still complying, no?
I feel the need to answer my own question since I've had some time from the day I posted this.

If your containment area is a sealed wall of plastic around the work area, all HVAC forced air openings are taped off (if you have them in the work area), I think you would be fine running a regular shop vac in there.

The thing is; containment areas can be as minimal as a piece of plastic on the floor going 6' beyond the immediate work space and in this case, you really should use a HEPA Vac rather than throw lead dust all around the house with a shop vac.

The call on what type of containment should be used is on the shoulders of the Certified Renovator and the Certified Firm.

[Allrounder]

Why not just clean them off site when you're done with them? Once that stuff gets back to my shop, there is no more RRP rule. Hell, I can blow it out with an air attachment if I wanted to. Just can't do that at the customers house.

(Maybe I'm missing something?)

Your point is well taken. Might even throw 'em in the dishwasher (just don't tell my wife!)

[Silvertree]

I bought a HEPA backpack vac for $300.

I will be doing a review soon on it, I'm just waiting for someone to film me using it.

Remodel Crazy will be selling this vac (as a service) we get a discount and will split it with members. The Remodel Crazy price will be good and we will make some maintenance money and buyers will get a discount.

Win win.

True HEPA, American made, only used for final clean and it comes with a carpet beater that is air driven.

I researched the hell out of vacs and this is a good one.

[Century Man]

I purchased a ProTeam Super QuarterVac HEPA Backpack Vacuum Cleaner With Telescoping Wand Kit 3 (106291), 6 Quart Capacity, 106579-D, BONUS FREE BAGS FREE SHIPPING @ $399.95 as recommened by this forum, however, when I tried using RC Amazon the unit was unavalable. Sorry, but I went with another supplier.

[Silvertree]

That's ok Ned, just send a check to The Paul in the amount of 10% of sticker value and $19.95 more for my being inconvenienced.

But wait! There's more, do it today and I'll send you an RC squirt bottle for wiping down the work area.

But wait! There's more, do it today and we'll include a box of micro fiber cleaning wipes.:rolleyes3: