Blood tests for Homeowners

[Silvertree]

On the Linkedin site (NARI) a discussion is going on with a NARI contractor saying he will ask his customers to take blood tests before and after work is done on projects in homes that test positive for lead.

He is supported by an insurance industry spokesman who is an insurance agent. This will be audited by a third party testing company.

Without getting emotional I would like to know if any of us think this is the path to take with protecting ourselves and our businesses over the lead issue.

I myself would be OK suggesting it but I think in the minds of some people they would think I was crazy, but consider what will happen when lawyers start getting lawsuits started over this, and they will.

[Eieio]

I don't think it will go over well.. Who pays for the test??

[Silvertree]

Homeowners pay for the tests, so a family of 4 pay for 4 tests and the dogs and cats get tested too! Seriously!

The contractor doing this thinks it will be a useful sales tool and he does make some good points. But it would be easy to make good points not to do it.

My biggest question would be, will the remodel market accept this level of control in what homeowners will put up with?
The poster goes on to say he will not work for homeowners who don't take the blood test. This might work for a few companies, a kind of niche group to market to. It won't work for many more, regardless of its good for them or not.

[ArmchairDIY]

I think this is way over the top. I know I seldom have to deal with lead but honestly my first gut reaction was "WTF!"

What the heck lets throw in a couple lie detector tests, a stress test and a procto exam for us contractors as long as I have to list a doctor as one of my subcontractors now.

Oh thats right I was not supposed to get emotional. I think I will go have a good cry now, because this kind of stuff really pisses me off!

[Eieio]

Any idea the cost of the test?

Would the testing require having to go to a lab or is it an in house test kit??

Seems like a would be a major burden for parents/families who have limited financial means..

[RCP]

I was searching this subject yesterday, found labs that show prices for blood test from 59(adult lead) to 299 (heavy metal screen). Many people would qualify for free tests at the local Health Dept., not based on income.

My thought last year was to be that third party tester/professional, offer services to a variety of people. Not now!

[RCP]

The testing labs I looked at online, you order the test, they send you to a nearby (participating) clinic/doctor for the blood draw and submission.

[Silvertree]

Forgetting the cost for a moment, you would have to get compliance and then get Ma, Pa and the kids off to the clinic.

You would not want to have anything to do with the testing since your not a doctor.

Lawyers will have opportunities within this ruling and remember, the law is not about justice, its about how much legal help you can afford.

[TooledUp]

Seems a bit extreme when all he has to do is get the occupiers of the house to sign a disclaimer before the work starts.

You also may open other cans of worms such as paternity issues and the likes.

[Eieio]

Seems a bit extreme when all he has to do is get the occupiers of the house to sign a disclaimer before the work starts.

You also may open other cans of worms such as paternity issues and the likes.



Mr Tooledup I have good news and bad news for you..

The good news your daughter does not have Lead poising..

The bad news she is pregnant..

Good luck on your remodel

[ArmchairDIY]

LOL.... "As long as we are doing lead abatement, would you like us to add another bedroom?"...lol

I sort of understand the test from a liability standpoint. But jeez it seems to me that it would scare the hell out of potential clients.

[Bender]

I think its over the top too.

[Silvertree]

Seems a bit extreme when all he has to do is get the occupiers of the house to sign a disclaimer before the work starts.

You also may open other cans of worms such as paternity issues and the likes.

You cannot have anyone sign a disclaimer!

No opt out provisions and people are already lobbying to make this rule stricter.

Don't kid yourself about this there is some big money behind this legislation. We are the last industry left without a collective voice.

As far as NARI (7000 members and 3000 of them vendors) or the NAHB with a small remodeling membership.
All together they are the voice of less than 1% of remodelers, the people most affected by the lead ruling.

[nEighter]

I know it has nothing to do with a homeowner, but I was asked to help on a red lead job, the inside of a huge industrial tank. I didn't do it, but the guys got tested before they went to work, and directly after they got done EVERY day. That was a HUGE money absorbing job, think all insurance $$ u have to pay.. they were payed well but the whole process was HUGE money. There is no way on god's green earth a h/o will and can afford this. No way.

[Tommy]

At what point would he do the after test? As soon as he is done working, so the family hasn't had a chance to disturb any lead dust yet? 6 months down the road? A year? If you leave a pile of lead dust, wouldn't the HO's blood lead levels be increasing over time? A test that says they are fine the day after you get done wouldn't absolve you of any responsibility, would it?

[PA Woodbutcher]

You cannot have anyone sign a disclaimer!

No opt out provisions and people are already lobbying to make this rule stricter.

Don't kid yourself about this there is some big money behind this legislation. We are the last industry left without a collective voice.

As far as NARI (7000 members and 3000 of them vendors) or the NAHB with a small remodeling membership.
All together they are the voice of less than 1% of remodelers, the people most affected by the lead ruling.

And someone will be making money off from legislation of this sort. Where is this money supposed to come from? Once registration for lead abatement and blood testing start, stricter regulations on dust containment, OSHA will be up staffing and they will be levying fines.

BTW was that a pitch for NARI?:laugh3: It was a good one!

[Bender]

And the factors like where the HO's are employed, the kids schools and daycares. All of their extracarriculars like hunting or fishing.
All possible points of contamination.

[dan-o]

Again, maybe I'm naive, but I think this is another over-reaction.

I thought the RRP 'sign off' process was kind of a joke given the laminated inspection card, the subjective interpretation of the photo compared to your actual swiffer wipe & the '2 cleanings your done' over-ride.

If anything, I think pre-screening HO will add to the chances of you getting sued.
Without a pre-work baseline, any post work claims of elevated lead levels could be pretty easily debunked given the multiple sources of lead that a pre-78 structure contains (carpet, dust between floorboards, paints/varnishes outside your work zone.....).

If you follow EPA certified RRP processes there should be no grounds for lawsuit.
You will have followed the letter of the law pertaining to your work.

My biggest RRP fear is pricing myself out of the market due to a lack of tangible enforcement allowing non-cert firms to underprice me.

[PA Woodbutcher]

My biggest RRP fear is pricing myself out of the market due to a lack of tangible enforcement allowing non-cert firms to underprice me.

If they do have a for real enforcement, you will be busier than a one armed paper hanger with crabs. A lot of smaller companies will fold up shop and go to work for someone else. I'm considering it myself and have already been offered a job. I don't need or want the additional headaches and liabilities.

If not, you have a right to fear. I will probably not be competition as if I'm gonna play, I gonna play by the rules. The deciding factor for me will be when the insurance industry figures out how much they can make off it. I'm not starving now, but if I add 10 or 15% to my prices I may.

[Silvertree]

Being sued even if you debunk the lawsuit will cost you money.

Maybe this will be no big deal. But none the less its here and waiting for its first victims.

[Dusty]

Being a landlord lead issues were always an issue for me. Especially with low end tenants and 100 yr old houses. I covered my bases with the necessary forms and noted in the lease that lead could also be released by punching holes on pounding nails into the walls. I also took pictures of toys and such because you see alot of the stuff they purchased at stores also contained lead. The EPA has a huge list of things from lunch boxes to jewelry.

This new regulation stinks. But I honestly believe the contractors biggest worry should be the cost of complying.

Note, I have a lot of investor friends with hundreds of units between them and none of them were ever hit with a lead lawsuit.

[PA Woodbutcher]

This new regulation stinks. But I honestly believe the contractors biggest worry should be the cost of complying.


And the cost is passed on to the customer that can afford it. What about the customers that can't? I suspect that there are more of latter in our economy right now.

[dan-o]

Being sued even if you debunk the lawsuit will cost you money.
Maybe this will be no big deal. But none the less its here and waiting for its first victims.

I spoke with my father in law, an attorney, last night about this thread.
While he didn't review the RRP ruling itself I gave him a breakdown of what it involves on our side.

He didn't feel I should lose any sleep over the potential for lawsuits stemming from RRP as long as I followed the rules as required. Given his history representing families with lead-poisoned children and familiarity with MAs existing strict lead laws I trust his instinct but will be providing him with the full RRP rules to review.

Personally, I don't sweat the potential for legal issues as I'm lucky enough to have four attorneys in my immediate family (FIL, MIL, BIL, SIL). I can never get divorced (FIL gave me a 'divorce kit' consisting of a shovel and a body bag once) but they provide no-charge legal consul when the 'victims' rear their greedy little heads.

I was sued by an HO in 2008. He tried to blame his wife's existing, long term medical condition on our work, specifically fumes from our exterior job on his house. Completely BS but the guy, an ex-contractor, figured it wouldn't be worth my defending against his claim (which we discovered as being completely premeditated). With the help of the product manufacturer we took the guy to the woodshed.

Until there's a blood test for bat shit crazy, we'll always be exposed to unjustified lawsuits.

* Paul, I quoted your post not to start a pissing match but rather to keep this post in context.

[Silvertree]

A problem I see is who determines if you followed the rules?

The opportunity for litigation is a concern and until we have worked with this rule for a while we do have concerns over how its applied.

[KitchenSync]

Forget the blood test for homeowners - what about the blood pressure test for contractors? :surrender: