Who has the best tile prep and installation system?

[ChrWright]

There are as many ways to prep and install tile as there are ways to skin an orange (actually, there are more).

Even among professionals the subject is hotly debated. I've been doing my own tile work in-house since I started my company 12 years ago. During that time, there have been a number of advancements in tile installation technology, and there are new products introduced every year. From bare studs to grout, many of us have our own favored ways to prep, install, and finish. Unfortunately, too many options in anything often creates confusion. There is A LOT of confusion among builders, tile setters, and homeowners alike about what makes a given method the "right" way to do things.

Technology is supposed to improve the quality of our installations, make them last longer, and make the labor end more efficient. Or at least that's what most would assume at face value. Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks combining materials and methods in ways they weren't meant to be--and the ease of use of some products have encouraged many to call themselves "tile-setter" who have no business picking up a trowel. Many of those products have been produced to appeal to the DIY/HGTV/Home center generation that is eager to perform this work on their own, who sometimes don't care if the installation lasts any longer than the day they sell and move.

This "dumbing down" of the trade, as many old schoolers would call it, can certainly be felt by those of us who are consumers of tile services. I've attempted to sub out various projects over the years and have been shocked at the lack of skill and knowledge among so called "professional" tile contractors.

Even with modern setting materials, the tile trade takes a great deal of knowledge and care to yield an aesthically pleasing and lasting result. On my own projects, I want the installation to last at least 50+ years. I've often wondered at times how our modern methods will hold up over the long haul--given many haven't been around long enough to prove themselves road worthy.

"They don't make them the way they used to." Is that good or bad? This debate certainly isn't limited to the tile trades. How many other trades have been significantly impacted by improvements in technology? How many other trades have seen a brain drain because the barriers to entry have been greatly reduced by "improvements" in technology.

[Allrounder]

It amazes me at how many tile shower systems I tear apart after only 5-10 years, and every single one of them is failing due to lousy workmanship. The most often ignored part of the job is waterproofing. People think that tile and grout is waterproof; it is not.

There are very few "true" tile setters around anymore. I'll admit that the only reason that I can produce a lasting tile job is due to the modern materials and methods that are available to me. I probably couldn't float a flat mud bed if my life depended on it. Tile is truly an under-appreciated skilled trade.

[angus242]

Unfortunately, the only way to really answer that question is to revisit one of your installations 50 years later and see how it did.

Specifically speaking about tile, I prefer using Schluter products. They seem to be the most time-tested of all the newer materials being used today. Ditra and Kerdi have been in use since the 80's. Furthermore, there are numerous tile setters using their products. I am banking on the quantity being used within the time frame they have been available. If there was a design flaw in any Schluter product, I assume it would have become apparent by now.

As for techniques, I prefer to over build based off current building practices. I rarely see any newer home built with framing that exceeds the L/360 minimum requirements to tile with ceramic. I mainly work on homes that are 20 years old or newer so I go into every tile project assuming I need to add some kind of further support to framed floors. I will never tile unless a subfloor contains at least 1" of material with the upper most wood being a minimum of 1/2" EGP. Ditra has been my only choice of underlayment for over a year now. I no longer use CBU.

There are newer choices most which seem to address a quicker install with lighter materials. I'm not sold on those products. I do rely quite a bit on what the TCNA has to say about MINIMUM requirements but I feel the method(s) we have in place right now are a great compliment between long term sustainability and taking advantage of technology.

One of the biggest problems I see, specifically with the tile industry, is the misuse of materials. Chris, as you know, there are a lot of "pros" out there not following guidelines set by the TCNA or worse yet, the manufacturers themselves. So I personally don't think the current standards and/or materials available for the tiling industry are negatively affecting the long term sustainability of an installation, it's the shortcuts that are taken to make the job cheaper or quicker.

I believe this same concept can translate to other trades. The proper information is out there. Trying to get people to read and follow these instructions is a totally different story. Just spend a week on a DIY site and see how many people take shortcuts THEN go looking for the correct info after screwing up.

[orson]

Chris,

Most of the vertical tile installations we rip out of bathrooms are failing because of a lack of waterproofing and deterioration in the substrate usually due to mold and moisture.

This is as true of 20 year old installations as it is of 70 year old installations.

My point is, has it really gotten worse, or is there just a certain percentage of "professional" tile installations that are done well and last versus a certain amount that don't hold up well and are failing, and you are just percieving it as being worse?

[angus242]

My earlier comment was about floor tile. Wet location installations are a completely different story. You still need to use the proper materials and follow instructions but someone who doesn't waterproof is gambling. That's not a game I'd be willing to play. Waterproof properly and sleep well at night.

[Blue]

My home built 1978. Tub surround is 4 x 4 tiles glued right on to the drywall.

Looks like it was installed today.

Most tile probs I find is the caulk has deteriorated and water will "climb" drywall. The second prob is water entering the valve.

I never use any of the glamorous 'systems' except for switching to green drywall when it came out a while back.

[ChrWright]

I don't use the word "never" very often---but I would never install tile over any drywall: regular, green, blue or pink.

Maybe Brock has his harem give him sponge baths everyday--so the walls don't see a lot of water. :laugh3:

[angus242]

Most tile probs I find is the caulk has deteriorated and water will "climb" drywall. The second prob is water entering the valve.

Properly waterproofing takes care of both situations.

[ChrWright]

What's the best tile backer?

Wonderboard
Durock
Hardibacker
Permabase
DensShield/DensGuard
Wedi board
Kerdi board (soon?)
Tar paper/Lathe/Mud job

As Angus pointed out, floors and walls have their own unique issues when it comes to tile backers.

[Blue]

Maybe Brock has his harem give him sponge baths everyday--so the walls don't see a lot of water. :laugh3:

Well yes they do, but they still splash a little when they get excited.

I hope the 700 surround jobs dont start failing now (I'm not going to sleep well tonight). One thing about me not buying in to all the bs it it leaves more supply for you guys so its all good. The newbs are being trained this way and their generation will teach the next and on and on. Old coggers like me will die off eventually.

[angus242]

While this is not the popular choice, I just use DensArmor. Schluter recommends basic drywall under Kerdi. Think about it. If you're using Kerdi, why would you need CBU behind it? That's like saying you don't trust the Kerdi or your installation capabilities. Kerdi installations have been recommended this way since its inception. I don't hear of complaints of failures. I don't see issues with this method.

[ChrWright]

Old coggers like me will die off eventually.

Now I'm getting emotional... :grin:

Unfortunately, a lot of knowledge and skill is going to be lost within the next 10-20 years as the old schoolers die off.

I've talked about this in other threads when the subject of craftsmanship has come up. There's a difference between knowing "how" to do something and "why" it's done a certain way.

Far too many tradespeople lack the knowledge of "why"... the future of the trades will unfortunately be in the hands of people who currently 'cut the ends off the ham' because that's all they've ever known.

Why do we use backers?
Why do we use thinset?
Why should I caulk the corners instead of grout them?
Why should I care what's in the TCNA manual?

Why are my knees shot and I'm not even 40?

Why is the sky blue?

[orson]

While this is not the popular choice, I just use DensArmor. Schluter recommends basic drywall under Kerdi. Think about it. If you're using Kerdi, why would you need CBU behind it? That's like saying you don't trust the Kerdi or your installation capabilities. Kerdi installations have been recommended this way since its inception. I don't hear of complaints of failures. I don't see issues with this method.

I don't like the idea of bonding a membrane with a porland based product to paper bonded to a gypsum based product. I'm sure in the grand scheme of things I'm just paranoid and I don't fault anyone who chooses to do this, but I will likely continue to use a cement based backer whether I'm doing Kerdi or a liquid membrane for the forseeable future.

Besides, if moisture enters the wall from somewhere else, short of the studs rotting away my installation will remain unaffected.

[angus242]

DensArmor doesn't contain paper.

I understand your concerns. However, the whole purpose of waterproofing is to keep moisture from penetrating. If moisture gets through, someone didn't do their job. I shouldn't have to be worried about moisture seeping through from elsewhere. Otherwise, you'd need to CBU the entire bathroom.

Moisture is a big concern when I design a bathroom. I stay away from using any sort of paper products during drywalling and make sure to waterproof any areas vulnerable to moisture penetration.

[orson]

DensArmor doesn't contain paper.

I understand your concerns. However, the whole purpose of waterproofing is to keep moisture from penetrating. If moisture gets through, someone didn't do their job. I shouldn't have to be worried about moisture seeping through from elsewhere. Otherwise, you'd need to CBU the entire bathroom.

Moisture is a big concern when I design a bathroom. I stay away from using any sort of paper products during drywalling and make sure to waterproof any areas vulnerable to moisture penetration.

Angus,

I wasn't inferring anything about your use of DensArmor, I've used it before and it seems like a decent product.

I was referring to using drywall behind kerdi.

As far as moisture from somewhere else I was thinking more in terms of a roof leak, an overflowing toilet in another room above, an overflowing second floor washing machine, a leaking drain or supply pipe in a room above etc.

[angus242]

Far too many tradespeople lack the knowledge of "why"... the future of the trades will unfortunately be in the hands of people who currently 'cut the ends off the ham' because that's all they've ever known.

This is why I continually educate myself. Most manufacturers offer classes on how to properly use their products. Using them as designed is pretty damn important. There's no excuse for not staying educated.

I think there's a fine line between an old school technique being lost because it's no longer taught or people stop using it because there's an alternative method. I mean do I really need to learn how to frame an entire house by hand nailing or just accept the fact that pneumatic nailers are the alternative?

I get what you're saying but at what point does a method or technique become too important to lose in time?

[angus242]

Angus,

I wasn't inferring anything about your use of DensArmor, I've used it before and it seems like a decent product.

I was referring to using drywall behind kerdi.

As far as moisture from somewhere else I was thinking more in terms of a roof leak, an overflowing toilet in another room above, an overflowing second floor washing machine, a leaking drain or supply pipe in a room above etc.


I completely understand and agree.

It's taken me years to decide on what products to use. Honestly, using DensArmor, the results wouldn't be any different over using CBU in the situations you described.

Totally off topic but I was doing a search earlier today for soapstone counter installation images and your website was one of the top 5 that appeared!

[orson]

Totally off topic but I was doing a search earlier today for soapstone counter installation images and your website was one of the top 5 that appeared!

Cool!

I got 23 hits in the last 30 days on my blog post about tile showers off the keyword "custom tile shower" but with a really high bounce rate. I tweaked the post to see if I can convert any of those, although they may all be from outside my service area anyway.

[Winchester]

While this is not the popular choice, I just use DensArmor. Schluter recommends basic drywall under Kerdi. Think about it. If you're using Kerdi, why would you need CBU behind it? That's like saying you don't trust the Kerdi or your installation capabilities. Kerdi installations have been recommended this way since its inception. I don't hear of complaints of failures. I don't see issues with this method.

I use DensShield behind Kerdi. Why would I ever ever ever put anything that is negatively affected by water in place that sees a lot of water? Even if it's behind a membrane. Screw up the kerdi and get one little trickle every now and then in one tiny spot? DensShield has no issues with that.

I have had 4 sheets of DensShield in my backyard for over a year now. They look the same as the day I bought them except for a streak of bird poo on one of them. It rains almost constantly for nearly 8 months of the year here.

I once had some drywall in my backyard that took me a while to clean up. It was goo in a couple weeks.

Not to mention the face on densshield was meant for tiling and bonds well to thinset.

I will start using GreenEboard (http://www.greeneboard.com/) soon which is what my supplier started carrying. It is actually pretty cool stuff.

[Decoman]

A lot of great info here guys... :2thumbsup:

[angus242]

I looked at using DensShield but my only fear was the long term capabilities of that acrylic coating staying attached to the core. For now, it's an unknown that I didn't want to chance.

I understand what everyone is saying about the "what ifs". My point is if moisture does get where it's not supposed to be, you have bigger problems than if it's going to affect to wallboard. For one, the problem will need to be fixed....sooner or later. At that point, you may be tearing out a wall anyway. If you have a pipe or ceiling leaking, the structure itself can be compromised. The wallboard's integrity is then secondary.

Screw up the Kerdi installation and again, the wall is not the main concern. A small error in a waterproofing application and you're allowing moisture to go where is it not wanted. It is going to eventually reek havoc to more than just the wallboard.

I'm not making an argument against using CBU. I'm stating my case that I feel I've done more than sufficient research to be confident in my choice of materials. :2thumbsup:

[Winchester]

I looked at using DensShield but my only fear was the long term capabilities of that acrylic coating staying attached to the core. For now, it's an unknown that I didn't want to chance.

I understand what everyone is saying about the "what ifs". My point is if moisture does get where it's not supposed to be, you have bigger problems than if it's going to affect to wallboard. For one, the problem will need to be fixed....sooner or later. At that point, you may be tearing out a wall anyway. If you have a pipe or ceiling leaking, the structure itself can be compromised. The wallboard's integrity is then secondary.

Screw up the Kerdi installation and again, the wall is not the main concern. A small error in a waterproofing application and you're allowing moisture to go where is it not wanted. It is going to eventually reek havoc to more than just the wallboard.

I'm not making an argument against using CBU. I'm stating my case that I feel I've done more than sufficient research to be confident in my choice of materials. :2thumbsup:

I agree and see no problem with you using drywall behind kerdi.

I just feel more confident in my own installations when using DensShield. I like the fact that the surface was meant for thinset application and in my opinion would bond better than drywall paper, plus the face is waterproof and the silicone drywall whatever that it's made of just doesn't care if it gets wet or not. :2thumbsup:

I've got 1 year of rain and UV exposure on the DensShield in my backyard and the stuff is leaning against a wall and hasn't even folded onto itself!
Also no mildew, or anything else. It literally looks the same as the day I bought it.

I confess, I do have an expensive addiction to overbuilding, though.

[angus242]

I agree and see no problem with you using drywall behind kerdi.

I understand what you mean about trusting your installations.

And to be clear, I don't use drywall behind Kerdi. I use DensArmor which is far from being drywall. It actually has a 12 month warranty against deterioration or delamination when exposed to normal weather conditions or high humidity. It's not waterproof but it can definitely handle some moisture.

One of the other benefits I failed to mention was the transition issues of 2 different wall materials. By me using strictly DensArmor, I don't have that issue. I hang the entire bathroom with it, throw up my Kerdi, tile and prime/paint elsewhere. I don't ever have to marry CBU to drywall or similar. :o

[kevjob]

All my tub surrounds and stand up showers all get easyboard then kerdi. wont use any other product now, something my competitors have never heard of or used.

[bconley]

The biggest challenge I see is the reluctance of old school guys to change their ways.
I get resistance every time I mention Shluter, Wedi or epoxy.

I'm going to fire them all and start fresh if they don't want to get with it.

Every traditional shower I have ever torn out has some kind of failure happening, there is a better way.

[ChrWright]

Clarification on my previous comment: I do install tile over drywall when it's an accent wall and not in a wet location.

[orson]

All my tub surrounds and stand up showers all get easyboard then kerdi. wont use any other product now, something my competitors have never heard of or used.

The problem with a lot of backerboards is that noone stocks them locally, so I don't get to see let alone try them, and it's hard to commit to bringing in a skid of something you haven't tried out before.

Easy board is one of the products I have thought looks very intriguing.

[ChrWright]

I know many of you hold that technology isn't the reason for a decline in the trades, but let me point out a few things.

50 years ago, where could you go for the materials and methods for the tile trade? Where could you learn how to mix mortar or build a shower pan? The trades were naturally protected by the methods and channels of material distribution of the time. To learn any building trade required getting accepted into a professional company where you could apprentice and learn under the direction of a learned master. This is how most of the trades have operated for centuries. Some trades which have licensing requirements, like plumbing and electrical, still hold to the apprentice, journeyman, master model.

But in the internet and home center age--anyone can pick up the materials and tools of a trade and go hack around until, hopefully, they figure it out. The channels of distribution are easy to access and the barriers to entry for those wanting to perform the work "professionally" are shrinking by the day.

Modern thinsets, backers, and waterproofing technologies have definitely brought more efficiency and longevity to the trade--but they are breeding an entire generation of DIY tradesmen.

I'll certainly admit that each new generation seems less and less willing to pay their dues to properly achieve mastery in a trade. But I often wonder if things are really any different, or if it's just my own perspective that has changed as I've grown older.

[Blue]

I'll certainly admit that each new generation seems less and less willing to pay their dues to properly achieve mastery in a trade. But I often wonder if things are really any different, or if it's just my own perspective that has changed as I've grown older.

Who puts Gargoiles on buildings anymore? Homes are a place to park your car and shower. The average homeowner stays in there home 5 years.

[ChrWright]

Who puts Gargoiles on buildings anymore? Homes are a place to park your car and shower. The average homeowner stays in there home 5 years.

The quality of finishes and fixtures is a topic for a whole other discussion.

During the boom, 5 years was probably the average. I doubt that will be the case over the next decade.

[Winchester]

Do you mean technology like tv and internet or technology as in materials and procedures?

If you mean internet and tv, then sure, it makes everything look easy and harry homeowner thinks it's simple and that he can do anything

[ChrWright]

Ryan, I'd say all of that.

Internet, TV, home centers, products.

These have brought great benefits to convenience and easy of use. But the unintended consequence has been a dumbing down of the building trades--and as you mentioned, a perception in the market that drives down the market value of construction services.

How many times have you heard a homeowner say, "I'd do it myself if I only had the time." I'm certainly not bashing anyone who wants to work on their own home--but the results are typically far below the finished product that a skilled and seasoned craftsman can turn out.

For some homes and projects, that's okay. You don't hire a brain surgeon to pull out a splinter. But I've been in several million dollar homes recently that look like they were built by a middle school shop class.

[Allrounder]

I see where you are going with this Chris. I believe that the trades in general have been downgraded over the years. People used to respect the trades, there was a perception that there was a mystery surrounding them. How could anybody know so much about plumbing, tiling, electrical, etc.?

Today, there are shows like Extreme Makeover where they teardown and rebuild a house in a few days. It must be easy, it only took a couple of days, so anybody can do it, right? I'd say that HGTV is more to blame for the thinning of the trades than modern materials and techniques.

[angus242]

OK, I see where you're coming from, Chris. Well, I don't see this solely being just a tv, internet, construction issue. You can take it a step further.

How many kids these days know how to sit down and write a letter on paper, with a pen, form proper sentences, use correct punctuation and heaven forbid, spell correctly without spellchecker?

Cars used to be assembled by humans instead of robots.

Fast food used to be prepared specifically for you after you ordered.

Music use to be played by musicians using real instruments. A keyboard was the only crazy electronic thing heard.

So while I see your point, it's not just a construction quirk. Technology changes things. Yes, a house used to take longer than 3 months to build. Yes, people didn't have (a lot of access to) the knowledge to attempt home improvement by themselves. But if you break it down a bit maybe part of the problem actually lies within the construction industry.

I can't answer this question but I wonder if this is part of the problem; prevailing union wages. I have no idea what a decent wage was for a tradesman back in the 70's. Did unions drive costs up so much and along with them, wages, that it became very appealing for people who had no business being a tradesman into this industry? Tell me there isn't a stereotype for a young guy without a college education to enter the trades? Where else could a guy go without a degree and make $50/hour? I know a guy who is a foreman at a union electrical shop. He said 75% of the guys coming into his trade are worthless. Why are they there? The money they can make! Thing is, once you're in the union, it's pretty hard to get kicked out and honestly, you don't have to work all that hard once you're in it.

Now that you have wages at or above $40/hour, that opens the door for some of our fine brown-skinned friends from the south to come in a get work because they will do it for less. Who hires these folks? You KNOW there are GCs out there taking advantage of their labor so they can put more cash in their own pockets. When a fully legitimate and licensed plumber has to charge $150 for labor to install a standard toilet, you know there're plenty of people, and not just the illegals that are willing to come in and do the same 1/2 hour job for less.

So it seems to me the reason so many new construction projects don't have the type of craftsmanship they used to is pretty much any schmoe with a heartbeat can get into the trades. The expectations are not how good, but how quickly and how cheaply can things be done. Dare I say....GREED???

Don't blame Home Depot. Don't blame HGTV. Don't blame technology. Blame the greedy builders that are producing these homes. Blame the lazy tradesmen that are working on them who care more about their hourly figure than the overall quality. Blame the hacks who undercut both price and quality and the home owners who hire them. Blame the governing agencies which allow this to happen. Blame the consumers who are OK with purchasing a 2500 sq ft home built in 3 months for $200,000.

Chris, you are the minority when it comes to tradesmen. I just said in another thread (to remain unmentioned :annoyed:) about the quality of my own home. It was built with every cheap material, using every short cut possible. The builder didn't care. The unions workers didn't care. The city inspectors didn't care and most importantly, the woman who paid for it didn't care. I've had to adjust my expectations of what this home can be otherwise, I'd have to rebuild a vast majority of it myself to feel things are done correctly.

People like you are what the industry should be about. That's what we fight on almost every bid I submit. I've been saying for a while now, I'm not just a remodeler. I'm an educator and apparently a minority. :thumbsdown:

[WarnerConstInc.]

Easyboard? The foam core stuff?

Seen it used right next to denshield, on a floor, the tile over the denshield looks great, the tile on the easy board is cracked and the grout is popping.

I know you meant for shower walls but, really? 1/2" foam core board?