limits on preservation

[PA Woodbutcher]

What can I do to a house and still have it qualify as a historic building. They would like to stay as close to the original, but realize some things may cost more to keep it that way

I had a list dropped off to me by a friend of things they want done to their house. Don't have pics of the place, but will get some this week. Built 1894 or something like that. Beautiful old house with lots of craftsmanship.

List includes

Ceilings
Floor repair, This one is a no brainer
Windows. Can I build sashes with sealed panes?
Roof, Not sure what original was. Has been replaced a couple of times:laugh3:
Foundation repair. Currently has a stone foundation that has been repaired using concrete block. Will look at drainage issue, but think most of the damage has come from lack of gutters.
Gutters, most are missing. What is there is the old galvanized barn style.
New bath added downstairs

An easy 6 - 7 months of work. No doubt they have more work than money, but the bank is going to help them out with that. As long as my price is close to reasonable the job is mine....Tough one to bid though.

I posted a few pics on CT...I'll pop over there and find the pics and repost.

[PA Woodbutcher]

First few are exterior, got to get a painter also. The dining room ceiling will give you an idea of what kind of work is in the place (which needs some repair BTW). You guys will have a better idea of what your looking at than I am. Same guy built this place.

http://wyalusinghotel.com/wyalusinghotel.html

Crying shame these people won't be able to restore it to original. Would like to stay close though.

[JasonW]

Great looking place! I have a few questions.

What exactly is wrong with the ceilings? Are they coming unattached? Are they all wood like the one in the pic?

I see you listed foundation trouble along with lack of gutters and proper drainage. This is a most common problem with Historic homes. The best plan of attack is to remedy the drainage problem first.

For the foundation, I would recommend putting it back as close to the original as possible. Meaning, remove the block and put the stone back in. You need to try and match the size and species of stone as close as possible. If budget is a concern and the foundation has stabilized once the drainage has been fixed you may want to put this on the "long list" of repairs.

As for the floors being a "no brainer" be careful. As a remodeler, we think nothing of taking a sander to a floor and removing the old finish and by doing so must remove some of the wood. This is a HUGE no-no in preservation work! There is a method of "screening" the floors and then recoating with poly to freshen up the existing floors. I'll see if I can come up with the written process for that and post it here for you. As mild as this process is it is still frowned upon by some purest's. I have seen this done in several registered Historic Building though.

Not sure what you mean by sashes with seal panes but the rule of thumb is replace "like with like" meaning if the old windows are true divided lites and single pane glass (and I'm sure they are) then they should be replaced with the same.

Roofs in PA are pretty much like the one's in VT and NY during that time. They were either done with Slate or Ceder Shakes. The best evidence you can find to give you some clues is to look around that neighborhood. If you see a lot of Slate roofs it would lead me to believe that it was slate at one time. Also look at the builders other homes like the one you posted. If the roof is in good condition right now, put that on the long list of things to do. I've worked on many Registered Historic home that no longer have the original roof and it doesn't seem to have as much importance as you would think in order to be classified as Historic.

[PA Woodbutcher]

Great looking place! I have a few questions.

What exactly is wrong with the ceilings? Are they coming unattached? Are they all wood like the one in the pic?
The ceiling that is shown has some water damage from the bath above. Didn't think it was a problem, but will address as the floor. Most of the ceilings have cracked plaster, but in her living room, some one firred them and put 1'x1' tiles on them...they are falling down. She would like to go back with copper style tiles....I like a true flat ceiling as they once were...would sheetrock be out of the question?

I see you listed foundation trouble along with lack of gutters and proper drainage. This is a most common problem with Historic homes. The best plan of attack is to remedy the drainage problem first. Already have an excavator in mind to have a drain tile put down the sides, but still believe the problem to be the gutters....Any recommendations for them? I have covered up a few of the built ins, but this house shows no evidence of ever having them.

For the foundation, I would recommend putting it back as close to the original as possible. Meaning, remove the block and put the stone back in. You need to try and match the size and species of stone as close as possible. If budget is a concern and the foundation has stabilized once the drainage has been fixed you may want to put this on the "long list" of repairs. The section that needs repaired is the part with block...This one really needs to be addressed. Like stone shouldn't be to hard to find. We still have stone walls standing and I have quite a few friends that are "rockstars" that deal in tearing down those stone walls for a living.

As for the floors being a "no brainer" be careful. As a remodeler, we think nothing of taking a sander to a floor and removing the old finish and by doing so must remove some of the wood. This is a HUGE no-no in preservation work! There is a method of "screening" the floors and then recoating with poly to freshen up the existing floors. I'll see if I can come up with the written process for that and post it here for you. As mild as this process is it is still frowned upon by some purest's. I have seen this done in several registered Historic Building though.


Would love to see the method on screening, as I would have done that HUGE no-no. They are an oak, species undetermined as of yet. They have at least 1 threshold that has dropped and a few bad bad boards in them...Nothing huge as far as replacing, but the refinish could be.

Not sure what you mean by sashes with seal panes but the rule of thumb is replace "like with like" meaning if the old windows are true divided lites and single pane glass (and I'm sure they are) then they should be replaced with the same. Oh they are.....They were looking at helping out with their heating bills. Any idea how much it costs to heat a place like that with original windows:laugh3: Was hoping that I could build sashes and replace the single pane with a sealed unit.

Roofs in PA are pretty much like the one's in VT and NY during that time. They were either done with Slate or Ceder Shakes. The best evidence you can find to give you some clues is to look around that neighborhood. If you see a lot of Slate roofs it would lead me to believe that it was slate at one time. Also look at the builders other homes like the one you posted. If the roof is in good condition right now, put that on the long list of things to do. I've worked on many Registered Historic home that no longer have the original roof and it doesn't seem to have as much importance as you would think in order to be classified as Historic.

Most of the roofs around this area were ceder shakes. We have a few slate left and plenty of evidence of where there was once slate. Actually repaired a few of them, but never put one on. As far as replacing, would "like" to just replace with a good architectural, probably a GAF 40 year.

BTW did you check out the website for the hotel? That place is absolutely beautiful. They have done a great job over the years in the preservation and restoration of the place. "legend" is that the house that I will be doing was part of a competition between brothers who could build the nicer house.

[JasonW]

Cracked plaster doesn't always mean you have to tear it out. If you're not familiar with plaster repair get someone over there who is. It my be easier to repair that you think.

As for the roof, if it's out of the bugdet to go back to the original don't sweat it. It's better to have a roof that protects the rest of the house than to have one that leaks. I would think even a 3 tab would be better than a leaker. If the long term plan is to replace with slate, save some money where you can. I wouldn't recommend a wood roof though. Maybe find something that looks similar and call it a day.

Windows are a big hole in the wall no matter if it's 1 or 2 layers of glass in the sash. Most air infiltration comes from around the sashes and around the frame, not through the glass. A well done reproduction or restored window can do a lot for the energy efficiency of a home. Weather stripping, re-glazing, and replacing cracked glass can make a huge difference in the home heating bill. So can caulking in around the trim on the exterior and interior.

[JasonW]

One more thing on the windows; most of these old windows have pockets in the framing to provide room for the counter weights that make it easy to open and close them. Derek told me about a spring loaded, self enclosed gadget that allows you to remove those weights and insulate those pockets.

Haven't seen the link yet, but maybe he'll chime in and we'll both learn something...

[SLS-Construction]

Here you go Jason, from everything I heard they work great, I haven't had a chance to use them yet though
http://windowweight.com/default.aspx

[PA Woodbutcher]

The ceilings that are just cracked aren't too bad and I think I can repair them to satisfaction. The one that's been firred down will have many holes in it where they nailed the strips up. That one will be tough to tell what I'm getting into until the tiles and strips are pulled down.

For an old house, the walls, floors and ceilings are quite straight. The guy that built it didn't stretch the joists as they were so prone to do in those days.

Most of the "breeze" that they are getting is coming from around the sashes. Do you have a good weather stripping that you would care to recommend? They are talking about replacement windows, but I hate the idea of replacing them with vinyl.

[JasonW]

I've always used a Spring Vinyl "V" weather strip. They can be installed in a number of ways so that they are invisible.

V-strip weather stripping (Figure 8) can be made of metals or vinyl. They perform in a similar manner to spring metal strip weather stripping in that they utilize tension to create a very tight seal.

V-strip weather stripping is generally installed in window and door channels. The vinyl models often have a self adhesive strip on the back, making for easy installation. The metal version is applied using small nails and although a little more complex to install it will last much longer.

[JasonW]

Screening Historic Floors: http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,203303-2,00.html

[WarnerConstInc.]

The spring bronze works great to tighten up the old sashes and fairly inexpensive when you look at the big picture. Wood storms that fit snug is also a way to deal with it and I am sure the house probably had them at some point and time.

[PA Woodbutcher]

Screening Historic Floors: http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,203303-2,00.html

8 years in the army, I can run a buffer.:laugh3:

I've used the v style weather stripping that posted and although it probably works was never really impressed by it's looks. Will be over there today to take a list and some measurements. Will post a few pics this afternoon.

Warner, never heard of the spring bronze, will be using google...

I'm quite sure that it once had the wooden storm windows at one time also, as they are pretty prevalent in this area. I have to put together a sheet for the bank and we'll see what kind of money is in the budget. We've been back and forth on this a couple of times...how much can I get, how much do you need, depends on how much I can get?

Someone doesn't understand that if they give me a budget it saves me a lot of time and energy. Why would I spend the time pricing out $700 a window and a 10,000 bath, if they will only give me $200 a window and 5,000 for the bath:rolleyes3: On the plus side they are only looking for an estimate right now, so I will go high and give the HO a little wiggle room at the end.

[PA Woodbutcher]

The spring bronze works great to tighten up the old sashes and fairly inexpensive when you look at the big picture. Wood storms that fit snug is also a way to deal with it and I am sure the house probably had them at some point and time.

http://www.kilianhardware.com/sprinbronwea.html

I do like the looks of that...Actually before it's over will probably spend some time at that website.

[Derek Stevens]

SLS beat me to it with the Pullman clockwork balances. There are other manufacturers, as Pullman usually buggers the order something awful. Typing in 'clockwork balances " as a search will get you those options. As for the windows, as Jason said, 'like for like' is right, and the Sec Interior suggests storm windows, interior or exterior are to be used rather than wholesale replacement of windows

And for all of the T bronze and Pinch bronze for weatherization of old sashes, Pemko has a full line.

[WarnerConstInc.]

Derek was the one that turned me on to Pemko's selection.

[johnleeke]

I have posted some info on weatherstripping over at the windows section of the Historic HomeWorks Forum.
(I'm new here, so I guess I cannot post a link to that. Just google on "Historic HomeWorks Forum" and you'll find it.)

John
Historic HomeWorks

[JasonW]

Here you go John. http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1444

Good to see you pop in! :D

[ParamountPaint]

Historic preservation/restoration/rehabilitation can become a long row to hoe. For example, damaged plaster...there comes a time that someone will need to make some hard and fast decisions. Sure, you can get the lime/horsehair plaster materials, but who are you going to find to apply them? Not to mention the coatings..where might a person find historically correct lead paint? Hand-split slates for the roof, old growth timbers for the bones, perhaps extinct wood species involved, etc.

I believe that it is well nigh impossible to restore an 1800's era home to a historically correct state. You wouldn't expect the HO to forgo indoor plumbing, HVAC or electricity. What can be achieved is to reproduce, as well as possible, the "ambience" of the original architecture combined with the modern amenities of the 21st century. If one were to faithfully restore on of these homes to its original state, you might end up with a $1 million dollar, 2 bedroom home with an outhouse.

All that being said, I would re-roof with modern materials, leave the windows (re-glaze and restore), insulate as well as possible, and do the best I could to restore the characteristics that make this home what it is. As much as it is admirable to preserve history, there is a practical aspect that intrudes. Aside from a museum, very few people would wish to live in a historically accurate 19th century home. Oftentimes, the old maxim "they don't build 'em like they used to" is incorrect, doubtless owing to the fact that there were 'hacks' in the olden times, just as today.