EPA Snitches

[Eieio]

I have been lobbying the EPA to give me 10% of the fine for non-complaint contractors after April 22nd..

I have not heard back as of yet but I will keep trying..

So My question is, if the EPA were to give you 10% of the fine 37K = 3700 bucks, Would you rat out non-compliant contractors for a cut of the money??

[dan-o]

If I'm getting undercut on pricing by non-compliant contractors I'll do it for free.

[Bodger]

I have been lobbying the EPA to give me 10% of the fine for non-complaint contractors after April 22nd..

I have not heard back as of yet but I will keep trying..

So My question is, if the EPA were to give you 10% of the fine 37K = 3700 bucks, Would you rat out non-compliant contractors for a cut of the money??


Yes. In fact, I would make it my new job. :grin:

[Silvertree]

No, for personal reasons. Just don't feel its the right way to have enforcement.

[SLS-Construction]

Oh come on Paul - it's your civic duty and you can always use the money to buy your very own server... :grin:

[Silvertree]

Oh, a new server, OK.

[Allrounder]

We'd probably make more money being a snitch than being a contractor.....

[WarnerConstInc.]

How quick does the epa pay?

[naptownCr]

Dam straight I would snitch for that kind of money.
I'd do it for half that.
I know I could catch at least 2 a day no problem.

[neolitic]

This thread reminds me of an
old joke.
The punch line goes,
"Madam, we have established
what you are.
Now we are merely haggling
over the price."

[Leo G]

Hell ya.

..........

[Dusty]

No. I agree with Paul.

[Bodger]

No. I agree with Paul.


What, that you'd only do it for a new server?? :grin::grin:

[naptownCr]

So I guess that makes me Rory's snitching assistant.

[geogymn]

As I said before, I can't condemn a person for not following the rest of us sheep to slaughter.

[Eieio]

As I said before, I can't condemn a person for not following the rest of us sheep to slaughter.



So are you or are you not willing to rat out other contractors??

[afkama]

I'm so Liberal that I would inform on myself.

[PA Woodbutcher]

If it was someone that knowingly was breaking the law and not putting forth any effort to be in compliance.....Yes.

There are too many contractors out that have no idea what the hell I'm talking about when I mention it to them....These are legitimate contractors. If it wasn't for here and the other unmentionable site, I would be ignorant also.

[Eieio]

I'm so Liberal that I would inform on myself.

Don't worry I just put you on my rat out list

[Silvertree]

Don't worry I just put you on my rat out list

:laugh3::laugh3:

[Leo G]

Don't worry about being on his rat out list, I am first and last on the list. I bet I have a couple of spots in the middle too :laugh3:

[neolitic]

How do we know what you said before
if this is your first post? http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/neoliticman/smilieshifty.gif

http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/neoliticman/x.jpg

[afkama]

Don't worry I just put you on my rat out list

I'm still trying to figure this out Rory.
So I email you my job site address.
You turn me in to the EPA.
We split the fine.

What was my GPM again?

[Eieio]

I'm still trying to figure this out Rory.
So I email you my job site address.
You turn me in to the EPA.
We split the fine.

What was my GPM again?


Cost of good Sold

[afkama]

Cost of good Sold

OK got it.

Hell yeah...let's do it.

[Eieio]

Don't worry about being on his rat out list, I am first and last on the list. I bet I have a couple of spots in the middle too :laugh3:

I would rat you out for free, the EPA would not even have to pay me for a score on the great cabinet man

[deckman]

Be careful who you snitch on up there. Tony Saprano's crew might want to stuff a bird in your mouth.

Now if you can bust someone working on an EPA official's house, that would be 2cool. Heck, for that matter any Gman will do.

[naptownCr]

I would rat you out for free, the EPA would not even have to pay me for a score on the great cabinet man

I think it would be hard to nail a cabinet maker for lead dust.
Now OSHA on the otherhand.....................

[Eieio]

I think it would be hard to nail a cabinet maker for lead dust.
Now OSHA on the otherhand.....................



Have you not seen the pictures of his house??

[naptownCr]

Have you not seen the pictures of his house??

Yes I have but there may be lead however I don't see it being disturbed for quite a while. Probably after the rule is overturned in the Supreme Court in 2034

[tinner666]

I think I'd have to decide on a case by case criteria.
Any one of us, following the rules, could find ourselves on the short end.:surrender:

[Leo G]

I would rat you out for free, the EPA would not even have to pay me for a score on the great cabinet man

I hope you get another 2' of snow.:smash:

[PA Woodbutcher]

I think I'd have to decide on a case by case criteria.
Any one of us, following the rules, could find ourselves on the short end.:surrender:

Was just thinking the other day how much this was going to affect roofers. Not much. How much drip edge does it take to make 20 square feet?

[Leo G]

Oh don't worry, they'll think of some sub-rule to screw them too.

[Silvertree]

Roofers have a few ways to get screwed, replace some rotten fascia, remove old painted vents, painted valleys, crickets and flashing, all these things.
Cut the siding to install step flashing. Not to difficult to get roofers involved.

[DaVinci]

If it was someone that knowingly was breaking the law and not putting forth any effort to be in compliance.....Yes.

There are too many contractors out that have no idea what the hell I'm talking about when I mention it to them....These are legitimate contractors. If it wasn't for here and the other unmentionable site, I would be ignorant also.

I just read the whole thread and this post rubbed me a bit. Isn't it the good (legitamate) contractors that are taking the time to complete continuing education, taking the time to be informed, taking the time to inform their customers and in the end spending their own $ to do the "right" thing.

I'm not picking on you PA, but like you I'm talking to others in the trades who seem to be unaware and even after I tell them - I'm betting that only one in ten that I talk to will do anything about it.

I sense this feeling of empathy (possibly even sympathy) for those not willing to 1.) stay informed or 2.) do the right thing once they've been informed.

I didn't know about RRP until I got the info from that other forum or the other 4 I belong to. But being a member of this community (and others) and investing time (if not to contribute but just to stay on top of things) is a form of continuing education that you and I and the others here are investing in. Let these other so-called "ligitamate" contractors invest as much - the EPA phone number is spead dial #5 in both my phones.

[neolitic]

.........

I do wish you'd do something
with your screen name.
Every time I see it my stomach flips a bit,
before I realize it's you and not *shudder*...

[Dusty]

Are you going to start ratting out guys for not wearing safty glasses or operating a saw without the guard? There are more important things to worry about. And when we worry about our own business the rest will fall into place.

[DaVinci]

Are you going to start ratting out guys for not wearing safty glasses or operating a saw without the guard? There are more important things to worry about. And when we worry about our own business the rest will fall into place.

I think it's a matter of degree. Lack of safety glasses and saws without guards are not taking food off my table. While I would not take-out my cell phone to report a driver driving at 5 miles an hour over the speed limit, I would make the effort for a driver driving 50 miles an hour over the limit.

Based on your post, I shouldn't have spent the time getting Colorado's lien laws revised. I shouldn't have wasted my energy getting a remodeler a seat on the board of directors at HBA National. I shouldn't have wasted my time on CR, CPR or CAPS. I should have just worried about my own business.

There are a lot of people out there who work hard and invest tremendous amounts of time for the industry as a whole instead of worrying about their business and hoping the rest will just fall into place.

We owe much of our stature as professionals to people like Fred Case, Niel Kelly, Joe Howard, and yes even little ol me for our work on the industry. We were certainly worried about our own ox being gored but in the process we certainly protected your ox too.

I think it's wrong to become complacent. I think it's wrong to call those breaking the law "ligitimate". I think it's right to hit speed dial 5.

"The greatest menace to the life of an industry is industrial self-complacency."
David Sarnoff (1891 - 1971)

Based on the poll's tally at the moment - it appears complacency is well seated in our industry.

[Silvertree]

This isn't an argument, its a poll.
I earned my certs too, I won't list them but I will say this, when you decide to police your industry who are you working for? I don't like non compliant contractors but realize they are here and here to stay. I'm guessing they will profit from the RRP rule.

The truth of the matter is if we turn them in it will be to a bored and overworked Federal worker who by the time something gets done the perp will be on the next job.

When homeowners have some skin in the game I will revisit this topic.

Turn in JoeBob who has the HO's $10,000 downpayment and we now have JoeBob getting a lawyer with the HO's money and the HO's will hate us for protecting them, and for costing them that 10G's they just lost.

I am registered for Renovate Right and I'm not going quietly into the night, I will fight this on another level.

[Dusty]

It is a matter of degree. While I don't care about the guy replacing a hot water tank without a permit the fella digging up the front yard to replace a water main better have his ducks in a row.

I certainly understand where you guys are coming from. I think it best to pick and choose your battles. Everybody on here is guilty of side tracking the law. whether it be modifying a tool, working a cash job, not pulling a permit, etc... It may be a small infraction, but legalities are legalities.

I guess it boils down to he with out sin cast the first stone.

[Bender]

Anybody want to bet they put a 2 year furlough on the whole thing?

[afkama]

Anybody want to bet they put a 2 year furlough on the whole thing?

I wouldn't bet on it. From what I understand- what gave this a shove was a Federal suit filed by the Sierra Club during the Bush admin. I don't think it's really even up to EPA anymore.

[Eieio]

I wouldn't bet on it. From what I understand- what gave this a shove was a Federal suit filed by the Sierra Club during the Bush admin. I don't think it's really even up to EPA anymore.


I am betting on another lawsuit to pop up and slow it down

[afkama]

I am betting on another lawsuit to pop up and slow it down

I'll take that bet. $20

I don't think the will or the interest is there. We seem to be the only group in the country discussing it.

Who knows? Might be the easiest $20 you ever made, next to your income from the EPA.

[DavidC]

It is a matter of degree. While I don't care about the guy replacing a hot water tank without a permit the fella digging up the front yard to replace a water main better have his ducks in a row.

I certainly understand where you guys are coming from. I think it best to pick and choose your battles. Everybody on here is guilty of side tracking the law. whether it be modifying a tool, working a cash job, not pulling a permit, etc... It may be a small infraction, but legalities are legalities.

I guess it boils down to he with out sin cast the first stone.

Oh man, some of the things I've allegedly done..............

You can make every effort to comply with this new set of rules, but if they show up at your jobsite and start looking it is very likely they will find a violation if they want to.

We don't have licensing here but according to what I've read on this and other forums enforcement is spotty at best and seems to punish the licensed guys more than the unlicensed. What have we seen so far that will make this any different?

There needs to be a maybe option on your poll. As in if I had another reason to make someone's life miserable.

Good Luck
Dave

[PA Woodbutcher]

I'm not picking on you PA, but like you I'm talking to others in the trades who seem to be unaware and even after I tell them - I'm betting that only one in ten that I talk to will do anything about it.

I sense this feeling of empathy (possibly even sympathy) for those not willing to 1.) stay informed or 2.) do the right thing once they've been informed.


:o..Pick away...They can't all be as dedicated as we are, and there is the X Box to consider as a time killer:laugh3:.

Jesus I hope it's more than 1 in 10:mad:

[Highland]

No, I wouldn't turn in a licensed contractor until the EPA does a better job of getting the info out. Think of how many legit contractors there are that don't follow the few forums that have brought this issue to our attention and don't know about the regulation. If you were not a member of this forum would you know about it?

When the state licensing boards and EPA do a better job of getting the word out then I would be more willing to rat on someone.

If it was an unlicensed hack, I would rat then out today with no question.

[naptownCr]

:o..Pick away...They can't all be as dedicated as we are, and there is the X Box to consider as a time killer:laugh3:.

Jesus I hope it's more than 1 in 10:mad:

So far I'm 0 for 2

[ModernStyle]

I would rather round up illegals for $50 a head, I would be Bill Gates rich before I even hit California

[naptownCr]

I would rather round up illegals for $50 a head, I would be Bill Gates rich before I even hit California

I wouldn't even have to leave the county.
Some Govt poll said recently if we rounded up all the illegals it would be 10% of the workforce.

[fez-head]

Nope.

Like Dusty said pick your battles. This isn't one that I am concerned with.

Hiring cash workers - especially those who are already drawing unemployment - is a bigger issue to me and I believe they are taking more food off our tables than the guy not following the EPA regs. What makes it any different than the OSHA regs that none of us follow to the letter.

I paid for all my men to take the OSHA 10 Certification and I know damn well there is not one contractor out there that is following all those rules. Are you going to tattle on them as well... or will you be tattled upon??

How do you decide who should and should not be tattled upon? Remember Karma is a bitch and someone may just start looking over your shoulder for any infractions of god only knows how many laws and regs as well.

Like Dusty said pick your battles. Is this one really more worthy than all the others?

[Eieio]

Polled is tied up I need one more snitch for the tie breaker

Come on over to the dark side some one, snitching will free your soul. :laugh3:

[fez-head]

Polled is tied up I need one more snitch for the tie breaker

Come on over to the dark side some one, snitching will free your soul. :laugh3:

This is the PERFECT cause for Acorn.

http://afrocityblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/acorn-logo.jpg

[naptownCr]

Nope.

Like Dusty said pick your battles. This isn't one that I am concerned with.

Hiring cash workers - especially those who are already drawing unemployment - is a bigger issue to me and I believe they are taking more food off our tables than the guy not following the EPA regs. What makes it any different than the OSHA regs that none of us follow to the letter.

I paid for all my men to take the OSHA 10 Certification and I know damn well there is not one contractor out there that is following all those rules. Are you going to tattle on them as well... or will you be tattled upon??

How do you decide who should and should not be tattled upon? Remember Karma is a bitch and someone may just start looking over your shoulder for any infractions of god only knows how many laws and regs as well.

Like Dusty said pick your battles. Is this one really more worthy than all the others?

My wife works with the former head of OSHA who still has contacts there
You will be inspected Monday Morning.
I only get 5% but it's better than nothing.
We can represent you in Federal court for a nominal fee.





















The first line is true
The rest is BS
Except the last line (Always marketing for the wifey)

[fez-head]

OSHA makes by butt hole pucker.

[DavidC]

Polled is tied up I need one more snitch for the tie breaker

Come on over to the dark side some one, snitching will free your soul. :laugh3:

Give me a maybe button and I'll vote.

You'd still be tied, but it would play to my apathy.

Good Luck
Dave

[deckman]

I would rather round up illegals for $50 a head, I would be Bill Gates rich before I even hit California

I could get 1/2 that & be rich before I hit the city limits.

Ratting on other contractors....... not in this lifetime.

Not a single person I've mentioned this to has even heard of it.

[Bender]

I don't know about you guys but I'm quite convinced the government doesn't always have my best interests in mind:rolleyes3:

I can't imagine being their little snitch bitch over something as asinine as this. I mean really, its 2010 and now lead paint is an issue??? Why are lead related health problems in decline? Hellooo. Less and less people live in pre '78 homes:idea::smash:
This is akin to writing a law overturning prohibition. Not very relevant.

So now the government wants us to be our own victim, police, judge, and jury:rolleyes3:

No Thanks

[PA Woodbutcher]

And the whole time they allow lead laden toys from china:rolleyes3:

[orson]

Ok, I broke the tie, but not in Rory's favor...

:shifty: I'm keeping an eye out for EPA inspectors.

By the way Rory, I moved to Alaska if you need to let them know where to find me. :grin:

[Highland]

Real men don't snitch.

You can never trust a snitch!

[Eieio]

2076 ...........

[deckman]

And the whole time they allow lead laden toys from china:rolleyes3:

They wouldn't what to upset the chinese, they might not loan our government any more money.

If they want to fine someone, why not the folks that made the lead paint?
Oh yeah, the paint companies no doubt have highly paid lobbiest. No, they want to fine us, the contractors of today, for something that happened years ago that we had nothing to do with.

I won't win any friends here, but imo a contractor who snithes out other contractors for this are about as low as pond scum. That's saying it nice. Seems there a lot of better ways to make money, like doing our own work & mind our own business.

A question for you all that remodel older homes. What do you do when you remove old paint from houses now? Has any of you ever had an incident of lead paint poisoning?

[DaVinci]

Real men don't snitch.

You can never trust a snitch!

Or posters without profiles:rolleyes3:

[PA Woodbutcher]

A question for you all that remodel older homes. What do you do when you remove old paint from houses now? Has any of you ever had an incident of lead paint poisoning?

Never, that I know of. The majority of my interior work is on older houses. Have never taken any personal precautions other than to wear a mask.

When the home is occupied, I generally hang a layer of plastic and an old bed sheet over the doorway. Bag my debris and out the window with it. If it's a lot of debris, it get shoveled out the window onto a sheet of OSB for easier clean up.

When I get home, I head straight for the bathroom, clothes go in the washer and I climb in the shower. Never really thought much about the lead, but was more concerned with the other stuff in the plaster.

[Leo G]

Never had a problem (twitch). Been doing this for years (twitch, twitch). I don't see what the big deal is (twitch, shudder, twitch)

[Bodger]

I'm so Liberal that I would inform on myself.

Don't worry I just put you on my rat out list


I just put him on my liberal list.
Ak, if you have any guns you want to get rid of I'll take them off your hands for ya'. :laugh3::laugh3:

[Bodger]

How do we know what you said before
if this is your first post? http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/neoliticman/smilieshifty.gif

http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/neoliticman/x.jpg


Clearly, he works for the EPA and is snitching ALL of us.:laugh3:

[Bodger]

Oh man, some of the things I've allegedly done..............

You can make every effort to comply with this new set of rules, but if they show up at your jobsite and start looking it is very likely they will find a violation if they want to.

We don't have licensing here but according to what I've read on this and other forums enforcement is spotty at best and seems to punish the licensed guys more than the unlicensed. What have we seen so far that will make this any different?

There needs to be a maybe option on your poll. As in if I had another reason to make someone's life miserable.

Good Luck
Dave


They'll get their active job site leads from local building departments, government agencies love to share info. And they'll cherry pick the easiest guys to catch and make examples out of them.
Unlicensed hacks will take too much effort and assets to find, so it will once again be the guys who are honestly trying to comply that will take the hits.

Just like OSHA. If they hit your job site, they WILL find a violation. Might be a big one, might be small, but nobody rides for free once they are there.

[PA Woodbutcher]

They'll get their active job site leads from local building departments, government agencies love to share info. And they'll cherry pick the easiest guys to catch and make examples out of them.
Unlicensed hacks will take too much effort and assets to find, so it will once again be the guys who are honestly trying to comply that will take the hits.

Just like OSHA. If they hit your job site, they WILL find a violation. Might be a big one, might be small, but nobody rides for free once they are there.

That is the part that really blows. They use mostly third party inspectors and permitting up here. I don't think they are even enforcing the state registration. As a general rule I only pull 2 or 3 permits a year, decks 30" off the ground and major electrical and plumbing. I have 2 on the radar for spring that I will have to pull them for now...1 new commercial building and 1 deck.

[geogymn]

Clearly, he works for the EPA and is snitching ALL of us.:laugh3:

I'm a double agent and I will see you all in Hades!

[Bodger]

Rory Swan sez:

"Snitches get stitches" :grin:

[Dusty]

They wouldn't what to upset the chinese, they might not loan our government any more money.


A question for you all that remodel older homes. What do you do when you remove old paint from houses now? Has any of you ever had an incident of lead paint poisoning?

Most of the homes I work on were built in the 1920's. I worked through out my last pregancy. My little one is highly intelligent. And I am not saying that because she is my kid.
I helped with all the tearouts and wall repair. I worried alot while I was prenant, but I worry more about the toys she plays with.

[Highland]

Originally Posted by Highland
Real men don't snitch.

You can never trust a snitch!

Or posters without profiles

Sorry about that......updated now:)

[rselectric1]

I think I just tied up the vote.

I think we have to drop a dime where applicable.

Two reasons:

1)A "poor" contractor who was just trying to make a living and was just not aware of this will garner public support, and subsequentially increase public awareness. (Not everyone will get a 37.5K fine-so dont feel too guilty)

2)The "poor" homeowners who hired these guys in the first place will garner even more public support and again cause more public awareness. (Especially when the contractors are fined and disappear with the HO's money) This might cause a public registry for the certified firms.

The intent of the rule IMHO is worthy. If making our trades more worthy when we are legitimate, will produce more work for us as contractors (and that is what this rule does) then we should be all for it. But let's try to make the playing field a little more level with this rule.


An absolute MUST is that the public be made aware of this. Changing the rule would only hurt more kids and I am against that as a father myself. Let's make our trades worthy of the extra dough we need to charge and think more like good chess players.

Public awareness is the only answer. (Regardless of how the public is made aware)

[PA Woodbutcher]

Are you for real a community organizer? You got ties to Daly?:laugh3:

Never been a rat. I've found that if I take the energy that I would use being pissed off at someone else and use it to make sure that I do the right thing, it comes back to me.....karma?

I would like to reserve the right to change my mind if I start losing all my customers to someone who isn't following the rules, but I don't think that's going to happen. I like customers that follow the rules as they don;t ask me to take short cuts. I think if I do a good job informing and educating the customer I'll be ok.....

[Bodger]

Are you for real a community organizer? You got ties to Daly?:laugh3:

Never been a rat. I've found that if I take the energy that I would use being pissed off at someone else and use it to make sure that I do the right thing, it comes back to me.....karma?

I would like to reserve the right to change my mind if I start losing all my customers to someone who isn't following the rules, but I don't think that's going to happen. I like customers that follow the rules as they don;t ask me to take short cuts. I think if I do a good job informing and educating the customer I'll be ok.....


I'm with you on that. But I think the crucible will be whether or not we can effectively charge for the compliance procedures. Even with an informed client, I can foresee a lot of balking at the fair price assigned to making sure we're doing it right.
It may be pessimism on my part, but I think a lot of business is going to be lost to contractors who are taking short cuts.

[PA Woodbutcher]

In the beginning is going to be the tough sell until I get the systems down. No doubt I will loose some of them. The newer house, remodeling market is going to get tougher I would think, if everyone starts limiting themselves to post '78 construction.

[Eieio]

I'm with you on that. But I think the crucible will be whether or not we can effectively charge for the compliance procedures. Even with an informed client, I can foresee a lot of balking at the fair price assigned to making sure we're doing it right.
It may be pessimism on my part, but I think a lot of business is going to be lost to contractors who are taking short cuts.

If I bid a job on a pre 1978 house and lose to an A contractor that is not Certified I will send him a letter and information on the rule..

If they proceed to remodel, All Ratting hell is going to break loose.. :laugh3: :laugh3:

[afkama]

If they proceed to remodel, All Ratting hell is going to break loose.. :laugh3: :laugh3:

The way I see it for us is that no matter what- this is a done deal. Even it the 'rule' was modified to a 'recommendation', the liability alone would cause us to follow EPAs best practices. For better or worse this has become the defacto standard.

San Francisco has had a Lead paint ordinance since 1998. It didn't require the training or the testing mandated by the EPA rule. Instead we are required to assume that any building built before 1979 contains lead paint and act accordingly. This rule might actually ease the requirements on us. Instead of hardwiring these costs into our bids we are able to shift them to contingency and make them a discovered condition that the homeowner is liable for. That's the way it should be.

We've taken this in stride and the market hasn't disintegrated because of it.
A bigger issue for our clients has been seismic retrofits, and a bigger issue for us has been CalOSHA compliance.

One thing we've done is shift more of our demolition work to subs who specialize in this. The crew was never excited about doing this kind of work any way and in my mind- they were too highly paid and overqualified for me to have them do it. We also have some very strong recycling requirements as well and even if we do our own demo- the debris has to be hauled and disposed of by a licensed hauler who can verify proper disposal.

If we run across asbestos, and we often do, we are required to bring in a licensed sub to remove it. They have this process down pat by now and the cost isn't a budget buster.

When I was a young kid I did a stint with a with a platics fabricator. My job was to make the bending jigs. This consisted of running sheets of asbestos through the table saw and then running a dado to lay the heating elements in. Not even a dust mask. I haven't suffered any ill effects from this, but that isn't evidence enough to me to risk the health of my crew or clients. I will rely on the commonly recognized research to make that judgment.

As far as snitching goes, my feelings on this has evolved recently. A few years ago I could have cared less. Now more and more as I see the effects that unlicensed hacks and irresponsible contractors have had on homeowners, I'm beginning to feel more of a responsibility to participate in self policing my profession. There is a reason why contractors don't rate high on the trustworthy rankings for professions.

My preference would be for the licensing board to make a genuine effort at enforcement. My preference would be a level playing field.

In the meantime we will adhere to the rule. We currently contract with a consulting firm composed of former OSHA inspectors to perform surprise inspections on our job sites to make sure we are prepared for the real thing. One guys spends part of his time doing Quality Control inspections of our sites. My plan is to widen the scope of his duties and make him responsible for safety and lead compliance.

I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. We are becoming more concerned about airborne contaminants in general I have one guy on the crew who over the years has developed an allergy to MDF dust and another one who developed and allergy to IPE dust so severe that we had to rush him to the hospital on one occasion. We are actually becoming insistent about acquiring and reviewing MSDS sheets.

[Eieio]

Long post Afkama, are you snitching or not :laugh3:

[afkama]

I'm so Liberal that I would inform on myself.

I thought YOU were the one keeping score Rory.

I'm willing to snitch and I'm advertising the fact.

[Bender]

Well, lets start here...

How many contractors did you all turn in last year for disturbing lead? Or the year before that?

Wasn't lead just as dangerous in 2003 as it is in 2010? Yet nobody snitched on anybody. Now that its a law, "Oh, well thats different"
:rolleyes3:

[OGStilts]

What the hell were we supposed to snitch on them about, it wasn't illegal? Smoking is dangerous but no one is suggesting we snitch on smokers because they aren't doing anything illegal. I don't really care either way, I'm just saying I'm not sure I understand your arguement.

And for the record, I'm not registered yet so if I snitch, I'm going to have to snitch on myself first. But I still got 2 months to register.

[PA Woodbutcher]

I'm kinda sorta in the boat with you Rory. Don't know about all ratting hell breaking loose, but I will tell them about it and if they continue on the same course, I may drop a dime on them. Has nothing to do with a cut of the fine, it has to do with self preservation.

I'm with you also OG...I still haven't applied either. Right now I have possibly 1 bathroom on the radar that I would need it for. I have an older house that will be getting 35,000 worth of repairs being done to it, but hoping to be out of there by the end of March...If so I can maybe slide the bath in if I can get out of there quick enough. Everything else is new except a couple of decks

I hate spending money in the winter. Will probably apply for my certification end of March.

[Eieio]

Well, lets start here...

How many contractors did you all turn in last year for disturbing lead? Or the year before that?

Wasn't lead just as dangerous in 2003 as it is in 2010? Yet nobody snitched on anybody. Now that its a law, "Oh, well thats different"
:rolleyes3:


They weren't paying snitch fees back then, I am no snitch hack. I get paid for my informant activities. :rolleyes3::rolleyes3:

[PA Woodbutcher]

I'm guessing if I was to take my cut of the fine, I could probably hang up my tool belt.

[DavidC]

They weren't paying snitch fees back then, I am no snitch hack. I get paid for my informant activities. :rolleyes3::rolleyes3:

I am at least relieved to see you won't be a lowballing snitch.

Personally I view this as over regulation, even turning otherwise honest contractors into criminals by nature of the confusion within the law. I've been through the flow charts several times and am still confused about how to handle an upcoming potential job. A couple of smaller proposals are going out with a definite time limit so that I can complete them before the deadline.

I won't be applying for certification until spring either and will just try to steer clear of the older homes as long as I can.

To snitch would be akin to supporting the law, which I don't. The idea behind, yes but not the law.

Good Luck
Dave

[Eieio]

11 More days left in the Snitching Poll. Not the results I was looking for so far :thumbsdown:

[fez-head]

What kills more children - lead paint dust or second hand cigarette smoke? I can't wait until they outlaw public cigarette smoking - I can get behind that.

[RCP]

I have talked to 234 contractors in my area to try and get a class set up (as opposed to a 4 hour drive).
2 had vaguely heard something
Most had not
6 signed up (need 10)

Most of the responses
I just won't do pre 1978
I can't afford it
They won't enforce it, so why bother
I am a GC, don't need it

I have contacted the papers, the HBA, blah, blah, blah

When I first saw the poll, I thought, no, I wouldn't turn someone in, but I may try to educate them and the HO.

I just voted yes, I will turn them in, contact DOPL, whatever it takes.:censored:

[fez-head]

I have talked to 234 contractors in my area to try and get a class set up (as opposed to a 4 hour drive).
2 had vaguely heard something
Most had not
6 signed up (need 10)

Most of the responses
I just won't do pre 1978
I can't afford it
They won't enforce it, so why bother
I am a GC, don't need it

I have contacted the papers, the HBA, blah, blah, blah

When I first saw the poll, I thought, no, I wouldn't turn someone in, but I may try to educate them and the HO.

I just voted yes, I will turn them in, contact DOPL, whatever it takes.:censored:

Just a question for all you snitches..... will you be turning in the illegal aliens as well....... or will they continue to be ignored other than the standard bitching and moaning?

[nEighter]

No this year it is on. I was just speaking about that today. It is on an popping when it comes to people doing work illegally. I see a can (van) of beans at a site ICE gunna get called. I don't have to worry, I am legit and don't hire em anyway.

[fez-head]

What about the guys working for cash and inappropriately classified as "INDEPENDENT" contractors..... lets get them bastards too! They are taking food off my table.

[nEighter]

Jessee hell yes man. I am all for it. Maybe it is up to us to help "D-weed" the field.

[Silvertree]

That's a pretty even split on the poll, I said no on this particular issue.

On illegals I say yes.
On unlicensed, maybe, depends.

I have been licensed for 22 years but never understood why it was better.

[Leo G]

Because you're helping out the state....that's why it's better :rolleyes:

[fez-head]

Parked illegally - screw you I'm snitchin. I had to pay good money and feed the meter every 2hrs all day long for my parking. Fudging on your taxes - screw you I'm snitchin. I paid my taxes legally. Not following all the OSHA regs - well screw you I'm snitchin.

Snitch on em all and let Big Brother sort em out. HELL YAh! Next we can start suing everyone instead of taking personal responsibility - it's the "New American Way". We can all be on the government tit with no worries because Big Brother will take care of all of us - he knows best. This is exactly what our Forefathers who built this Great Nation would have wanted. :idea:

[afkama]

On unlicensed, maybe, depends.

I have been licensed for 22 years but never understood why it was better.

I see a definite value in licensing. But that should probably be a separate thread, so I'll wait to comment.

[Dean CRCNA]

Parked illegally - screw you I'm snitchin. I had to pay good money and feed the meter every 2hrs all day long for my parking. Fudging on your taxes - screw you I'm snitchin. I paid my taxes legally. Not following all the OSHA regs - well screw you I'm snitchin.

See a rape ... I'm no snitch. See someone dumping chemicals in your favorite fishing hole ... I'm no snitch. See someone robbing your neighbors' home ... I'm no snitch.

Fez, to me, it's all about your line. We all would snitch ... if it crosses our lines. We won't snitch, if it doesn't cross our line.

Personally, I've never snitched on illegal contractors (no permits, using illegals, no license ... etc.). But on the RRP compliance ... I'm leaning towards becoming a snitch.

Not sure if it's that contractors will be hurting people with lead dust or just that "this is the straw that broke the camel's back"

By this I mean, that there comes a time where the gap between a legitimate contractor and an illegal contractor gets soooooo wide ... that may be something needs to be done.

Instead of legal vs illegal contractors, I'm starting to see it as good VS bad. The illegal contractor who stiffs it's workers ... doesn't pay taxes ... uses illegals ... etc, have had it good & easy for a long time. May be it's time to level the playing field for once.

Just one man's opinion

[DavidC]

I'm going to stick with Fez on this one. Mainly I see snitching as an endorsement for a law I disagree with. It is definitely a good idea to handle lead paint in a safe manner for the contractor and employees as well as the homeowner or occupant. But as written, I am just as likely to unknowingly become a violator while trying to comply.

And then to apparently leave it up to those who must comply or not to make the new regulations known to the public is a serious flaw. (or entrapment if they choose to enforce.)

The public would have been better served had they invested the cost to get this far into a massive ad campaign. The issues of installing lead based paint have already been addressed and the danger of residual application is already waning as a result. In time this will become a moot point all by itself, or at least be reduced to a minuscule portion of the housing stock. An informed public is capable of making pertinent decisions regarding their own safety without regulation.

Good Luck
Dave

[scctrim]

What kills more children - lead paint dust or second hand cigarette smoke? I can't wait until they outlaw public cigarette smoking - I can get behind that.


And I was just kinda starting to like you...a little. :mad2:

And for the record, it would depend on the circumstances as to whether or not I would rat someone out...but for 3700 bucks the odds are good.

[PA Woodbutcher]

I'm going to stick with Fez on this one. Mainly I see snitching as an endorsement for a law I disagree with. It is definitely a good idea to handle lead paint in a safe manner for the contractor and employees as well as the homeowner or occupant. But as written, I am just as likely to unknowingly become a violator while trying to comply.

And then to apparently leave it up to those who must comply or not to make the new regulations known to the public is a serious flaw. (or entrapment if they choose to enforce.)

The public would have been better served had they invested the cost to get this far into a massive ad campaign. The issues of installing lead based paint have already been addressed and the danger of residual application is already waning as a result. In time this will become a moot point all by itself, or at least be reduced to a minuscule portion of the housing stock. An informed public is capable of making pertinent decisions regarding their own safety without regulation.

Good Luck
Dave

You mean like investing 2.5 million into an ad campaign for the rules instead of an ad for the census that everyone knew was going to take place?

I agree that the serious contractor is already taking measures to protect their customers and the ones that don't, won't. They are already the ones running around with no insurance, no license/registration, etc

[Dean CRCNA]

If or when I snitch, it will not be to EPA. It will be to the homeowner.

Snitching to the EPA wouldn't do much in my opinion. Are they going to come out on a small exterior painting job on the word of a competitor?

However, I think if I left a short pre-printed note on the homeowner's door (or mail it), it would do a ton of benefit.

1. It would let the homeowner know they may be getting lead poisoning.

2. It would let the homeowner know they hired an illegal company.

3. It would give them the email and phone number to contact the EPA. I personally think when the EPA hears from a homeowner ... it carries more weight.

Heck, I might even suggest they could get their work for free, since the company is operating illegally.

For me to leave a note or mail it, will take about 10 or 15 seconds. Plus, I would feel that I may have prevented a small child from waking up with blue lips (from poisoning).

Dean

[DavidC]

If or when I snitch, it will not be to EPA. It will be to the homeowner.

Dean

Now there is an interesting distinction. So far I've assumed that those choosing to snitch are calling the EPA to turn in a competitor, many for the fee instead of the higher purpose of making things better.

But still, I'm inclined to think that a homeowner receiving such a notice from a contractor they didn't choose might be thinking it's just sour grapes and not give it much more thought.

Good Luck
Dave

[fez-head]

Now there is an interesting distinction. So far I've assumed that those choosing to snitch are calling the EPA to turn in a competitor, many for the fee instead of the higher purpose of making things better.

As did I.

Doing what is right because innocent people are in "real" danger is a different animal altogether than snitching for "financial gain". I just don't see a lot of folks in bad health because I replaced a window with lead paint on it. As with all things we must use common sense. Educating the public about lead would go a long, long way to solve the problem and would be entirely more effective than more regulation and bureaucracy.

On the other hand I do see a lot of sick kids because their parents think there is nothing wrong with a little (or a lot) of second hand smoke. I won't eat in a restaurant full of smoke - #1 it smells like sh!t #2 I won't expose my family to it. I dont like smokers at the entrances of public buildings like the mall either. It pisses me off.

[dan-o]

Now there is an interesting distinction. So far I've assumed that those choosing to snitch are calling the EPA to turn in a competitor, many for the fee instead of the higher purpose of making things better.


When I voted 'yes' the EPA and 'reward' weren't on my mind. Given the fact that the majority of my work area is RRP target housing, I've approached other contractors before when I saw them grinding up a lead cloud whether I quoted that job or not.

As far as informing HOs, I'm about to drop 25,000 mailers which include RRP info and links to the state of MA, EPA and my website re: lead info. I will also be putting door hangers on surrounding houses so soccer-moms don't go apeshit when it looks like a superfund site when we start prep.

I'm debating lobbying local health departments to start permitting exterior repaints too. A small fee plus insurance and license/cert being the needed for permits. The inspectors are already out and having repaints on their radar would make verification easy and put some coin in their pockets.

I personally notified my main competitors of RRP and urged my vendor to sponsor classes, which they did. As a result my competition will all be playing by the rules and educating HOs (we are also co-oping the printing of the RRP booklet) so there will be very little chance my prospects will only hear about the rule, and costs, from me.

Sorry for the ramble, I'm down in St Maarten and the Heinekens have been flowing since the sun came up.

[SLS-Construction]

Note to self... Quit smoking before I ever meet Fez

[Bender]

I'm going to stick with Fez on this one. Mainly I see snitching as an endorsement for a law I disagree with. It is definitely a good idea to handle lead paint in a safe manner for the contractor and employees as well as the homeowner or occupant. But as written, I am just as likely to unknowingly become a violator while trying to comply.

Thats what I'm saying. Its like passing a law saying you shouldn't cut off your fingers with a chop saw.

Educating the public about lead would go a long, long way to solve the problem and would be entirely more effective than more regulation and bureaucracy.
Thank You.

[Bender]

You want to do something about the health of our children outlaw God Damn fast food.

[geogymn]

You want to do something about the health of our children outlaw God Damn fast food.

Ain't that the truth

[PA Woodbutcher]

Would like to change my vote:surrender: Been talking to some people, 1 of which is organizing classes and there are a whole bunch of people that aren't even going to be making an attempt at it.

If I gotta follow the rules, by God they will to. The days that I don't have any work, I'll be driving around looking for dumpsters, trucks and trailers with ladder racks etc. I'll be like a rural Rory:laugh3:

[Eieio]

I heard a rumor today that they are going to give out snitch fee of 20% of the fines

[PA Woodbutcher]

Not looking for a percentage, just a level playing field. Have lost 3 nice jobs in the past month to uninsured, unregistered hacks on unemployment. 37 grand in fines ought to settle their asses down.

[orson]

How do I change my vote?

I think I'm reconsidering my stance. Depending on how widespread non-compliance is I don't know that those of us that do comply will survive without snitching.

[fez-head]

Have lost 3 nice jobs in the past month to uninsured, unregistered hacks on unemployment.

Who is snitching on those SOB's.... they have been around 4ever and do far more damage than the naughty naughty "non-RRP compliant" contractor.

[Bodger]

Who is snitching on those SOB's.... they have been around 4ever and do far more damage than the naughty naughty "non-RRP compliant" contractor.


Snitching on those guys for not having a license is a waste of time in CA. Nobody at the CSLB does a damn thing about unlicensed hacks out here.

[Dusty]

How many communities even have the manpower to follow-up on such complaints?

[fez-head]

I would rather compete against a non-RRP compliant contractor than the ones with zero insurance and drawing unemployment. And then there is the issue of not paying at least "some" of the Federal, State and employment taxes.

This really pisses me off.

[Bodger]

I would rather compete against a non-RRP compliant contractor than the ones with zero insurance and drawing unemployment. And then there is the issue of not paying at least "some" of the Federal, State and employment taxes.

This really pisses me off.


Me too. From what I can tell, out here right now the busiest people in the construction trades on the small jobs are the illegal immigrants and unlicensed contractors.

Maintenance instead of new construction is on the rise, but I can't compete with someone who pays no taxes, has no insurance or licensing fees to worry about, and is also getting welfare.

There is no license enforcement in this state, and apparently, these illegals are being given a pass. It's too hot a topic politically for any of these CA politicians to touch even if they were inclined to. Come out against illegal immigration in CA and you lose the Hispanic vote and you're screwed. Certainly that's the case in the three major urban areas.