Non-Certified Firm

[Dean CRCNA]

Asking this same question around the Internet ...

I would like to hear you opinion on my understanding of ...

The rule states "On or after April 22, 2010, no firm may perform, offer, or claim to perform renovations without certification from EPA under §745.89 in target housing or child-occupied facilities, unless the renovation qualifies for one of the exceptions identified in §745.82(a) or (c)".

(a) Is where a lead inspector or risk assessor says there is no lead or where a certified renovator says there is no lead on the components being worked on.

(c) Is the opt out rule, which will probably disappear

To me, it is saying that it would be against the law for a non-certified firm to even give an estimate on a target home.

Period.

Whether or not the 6/20 sq ft applies or not.

Is this your understanding?

[Silvertree]

I agree......

[Blue]

UNLESS (it says)


To me it states that an unlicensed firm can work on it if it is deemed free of lead by a legit risk assesor.

My hope is that these Risk Assesers start popping up like the home inspectors did in the 90's. The more of them in your market then it stands to reason that assesment prior to rennovating will be an affordable option. Obviously, if the HO pays for the RA and it shows clean then the remodeler is exempt and unliable as if it was post-'78 construction.

This falls under educating and scaring the HO. If your community does this properly you should see property owners in pre '78 homes flocking to set appointments to get a RA whether they are rennovating or not. So if my theory holds, in the future when you arrive at your estimate appt. the HO will hand you a copy of their clearence certificate before you step foot inside their property.

Agree? Disagree?

[OGStilts]

I was just told the EPA is going to even be looking at ads and looking for non-certified firms who are advertising towards target housing (pre-1978 housing). Not that they are going to fine them right off the bat but they will be calling them and asking them to either get certified or to stop advertising targeting that type of housing.

I heard this from a contractor who sits on the board for Illinois so he's in the know.

[Bodger]

This may have already been covered, but what if you're involved in a project that was started prior to the effective date?

[OGStilts]

UNLESS (it says)


To me it states that an unlicensed firm can work on it if it is deemed free of lead by a legit risk assesor.

My hope is that these Risk Assesers start popping up like the home inspectors did in the 90's. The more of them in your market then it stands to reason that assesment prior to rennovating will be an affordable option. Obviously, if the HO pays for the RA and it shows clean then the remodeler is exempt and unliable as if it was post-'78 construction.

This falls under educating and scaring the HO. If your community does this properly you should see property owners in pre '78 homes flocking to set appointments to get an RA whether they are rennovating or not. So if my theory holds, in the future when you arrive at your estimate appt. the HO will hand you a copy of their clearence certificate before you step foot inside their property.

Agree? Disagree?


:surrender: A week ago I would of agreed with you but again I just learned that it is better for a homeowner to work under the presumption that there is lead in the paint than find out for sure there is lead. If a homeowner is to pay a lead assessor to test for lead and it comes back positive, now that homeowner is going to have to hire an abatement company to remove the lead from the home if they want to do any work. Plus they will have to disclose that information if they ever want to sell their home. If they just work under the presumption that there is lead present, then all the homeowner has to do is follow these new EPA regulations.

Basically, what I am saying is if a homeowner tests and it comes back positive, they are screwed. If they want to gamble and the test comes back negative for lead, they are only saving themselves the cost of these extra precautions the EPA is asking us to do. That's a huge gamble if you ask me.

Blue, I was with you on this whole thing up until about a week ago. My thoughts on this whole thing has changed a lot in the past week. Mostly because of what I have learned from a seminar my lumber yard put on for us.

I learned how even a little lead dust can severly and permentantly damage the development of a child's brain. I'm not talking about after the project is done. I'm talking about dust on my clothes that I may track into my truck which my daughter jumps in and is eating her snacks and drops them on the seat but then picks it up and pops it in her mouth. That lead is now in her blood stream.

Take a penny. Now split that penny into 2,000,000 pieces. A spec of lead dust that small can cause a kid under the age of 10 to loose 4-7 IQ points.

I know that all of this seems very very far fetched but the more and more I think about this and the fact that I put my daughters face on a child who could be affected by this has really scared me straight. Blue, I know how much your son means to you. Put his picture in your mind when they are talking about the harm it does to kids and I think it will really change your perspective. It did for me.

I don't think I can in good conscience fight this any longer. I hate the fact the government is stepping in and regulating yet another part of my life but I'm starting to think what they are asking to do is not as bad as some of us may think.

[DavidC]

Asking this same question around the Internet ...

I would like to hear you opinion on my understanding of ...

The rule states "On or after April 22, 2010, no firm may perform, offer, or claim to perform renovations without certification from EPA under §745.89 in target housing or child-occupied facilities, unless the renovation qualifies for one of the exceptions identified in §745.82(a) or (c)".

(a) Is where a lead inspector or risk assessor says there is no lead or where a certified renovator says there is no lead on the components being worked on.

(c) Is the opt out rule, which will probably disappear

To me, it is saying that it would be against the law for a non-certified firm to even give an estimate on a target home.

Period.

Whether or not the 6/20 sq ft applies or not.

Is this your understanding?

I would be concerned that this interpretation would prevent an non-certified firm from bidding even in a situation where the work will not disturb lead paint. Cabinet and counter top installations come to mind.

This may have already been covered, but what if you're involved in a project that was started prior to the effective date?

I believe you will have to cease until certified.

Good Luck
Dave

[Dean CRCNA]

I would be concerned that this interpretation would prevent an non-certified firm from bidding even in a situation where the work will not disturb lead paint. Cabinet and counter top installations come to mind.

Cabinet and counter top installations may apply to the RRP Rule.

One reason, it could be touching a painted surface ... the cabinet is painted ... the cabinet is stained (which would fall under paint).

Two, removing cabinet and counter tops would be considered demo. When you demo, there are no exclusions. In other words, no 6 sq ft per room applies if you are doing demo.

[Dean CRCNA]

UNLESS (it says)


To me it states that an unlicensed firm can work on it if it is deemed free of lead by a legit risk assesor.

Agree? Disagree?

Agree.

A problem I see, is that many homeowners don't want to disclose that they have lead paint (which may drop the value of the home). So, most likely ... they have not or will not get a lead inspector or assessor to check for lead.

[Dean CRCNA]

OGStilts,

I heard in my class, that a 1/2 teaspoon of pure lead dust can contaminate a football stadium.

[SLS-Construction]

This may have already been covered, but what if you're involved in a project that was started prior to the effective date?

Work is to cease per the EPA: On or after April 22, 2010, no firm may perform, offer, or claim to perform renovations without certification from EPA

So even if you have already started a project - on that magical date, you had better be certified

[SLS-Construction]

Dean - this is an issue because it contradicts what the their FAQ states:

The rule applies to all persons who are paid to perform renovation, repair, and painting projects in pre-1978 housing, child care facilities and schools with lead-based paint. This includes home improvement contractors, maintenance workers, painters and other specialty trades. The rule does not apply to minor maintenance or repair activities affecting less than six square feet of lead-based paint in a room or less than 20 square feet of lead-based paint on the exterior. Window replacement is not minor maintenance or repair.

So can Leo technically install just cabinets in a house that the HO did and he is not disturbing paint? According to the reg - no, according to their interpetation - yes

[Dean CRCNA]

Dean - this is an issue because it contradicts what the their FAQ states:

So can Leo technically install just cabinets in a house that the HO did and he is not disturbing paint? According to the reg - no, according to their interpetation - yes

I see their interpretation under their training course, "Lead Safety for Renovation, Repair and Painting". In their training book and course (page 2-3) ...

Minor Repair and Maintenance Activities (the 6/20 sq ft)

"Note: This exclusion does not apply to window replacement, demolition or activities involving prohibited practices."

On one point, if Leo is not a certified firm, he can't even give an estimate (to my understanding). I think we're agreeing on this point.

On a second point, if Leo is not a certified firm, he can't do demo on anything painted or touching paint.

I'm probably wrong, but that is why I started this thread (to get a clearer understanding)

[Leo G]

Well, I am going to be giving estimates and doing work like I usually do. Get your snitcher ready Rory.

Sounds like no matter who you are they want you to be certified. Even if you are not going to be doing any demo work. Just change the rules a bit so everyone has to pay. Just another government scam.

[ChrWright]

Where are all these alarmist stats coming from they're throwing out in the classes?

I know this is a big deal, but come on...

[Leo G]

Haven't you heard, everyone is gonna die after this rule takes effect? :rolleyes:

[Bodger]

Well, I am going to be giving estimates and doing work like I usually do. Get your snitcher ready Rory.

Sounds like no matter who you are they want you to be certified. Even if you are not going to be doing any demo work. Just change the rules a bit so everyone has to pay. Just another government scam.

Haven't you heard, everyone is gonna die after this rule takes effect? :rolleyes:


I agree on the scam aspect of this thing. I believe it is a legitimate concern, but I also think the government will make it easier for them to collect fines than it is for an honest contractor to understand and comply with this new regulation.

Everyone won't die, but you can bet some people are going to get butt-stabbed and pay huge fines.

[ChrWright]

I'd like to officially OPT-OUT of the butt stabbing...

[Bodger]

I'd like to officially OPT-OUT of the butt stabbing...


Me too, I'm still trying to figure out how. :grin:

[Leo G]

I really love how the lead incidents are falling and have dramatically been reduced over the last decade. But now they want to put the rule in anyway. Trying to get that last 3-4% off the books. I just wonder who is gonna be the first to get nabbed and how close to the 22nd it is going to be.

[Bodger]

No one is safe. :grin:

[Bender]

OGStilts,

I heard in my class, that a 1/2 teaspoon of pure lead dust can contaminate a football stadium.

Dude, I bet I have over a POUND of lead on my truck tires.

Lead Wheel Weight Quick Facts

* There are 200 million autos and light trucks on the nation's roadways.
* Sixteen million new autos are produced annually in the United States.
* An average of 4.5 ounces of lead is clipped to the wheel rims of every automobile in the United States.
* Approximately 50 million pounds of lead is used annually to produce tire weights worldwide in autos and light trucks.
* 75% is recycled by secondary lead smelters.
* 25% (or 12.5 million pounds annually) is uncontrolled or unmanaged in the environment.
* 13% of the 12.5 million pounds (1.6 million pounds) is lost when wheel weights fall off during normal driving conditions (e.g., hitting a pot hole).
* 87% of the 12.5 millions pounds (10.9 million pounds) is sold or given to hobbyists for recreational purposes (e.g., melting down to make fishing sinkers).


Why is this not affecting the tire industry:)