I'm still here. Darn it.

[Leo G]

Still grinding the stone. Here it is Friday night and I'm at the shop. Got projects due and problems with staining. Gonna be a long night.:rolleyes3:

[naptownCr]

Well stop posting and get to work!

[Silvertree]

Yeah, what Naptown says, Rory holding a knife to you to be on the forum?:laugh3:

[Leo G]

I'm spraying face frames right now. I can't move them until they flash off. Then they go into the drying room. I think I have conquered the color. I had a problem with the original staining. I did a sample and the real stuff did not react the same. The stain ended up being to light. But it was consistent. So I had to go to my stain mixer today to get an adjustment. It was suppose to be another stain to put on top of the original one. He did a sample and it looked real close.

When I got back to the shop the sample was so much darker. I played with it for quite a while. Playing chemist. Add this and that to try to make it work. Nothing was getting where I needed to go.

So I went a different route. Instead of hand applying it I sprayed it out of my gun in a mist that you could barely see. I did two 50% overlap passes and it seemed to be good. I did it on all the doors and it didn't quite match my sample, real close. I'm too anal. So I tried a few other things on samples and nothing would bring it closer to what I needed. So I figured it was close enough. I bet the client won't even notice.

So now I am putting the clear coats on it. I have two on the front and 1 on the back. One more on each side should do it. Hope I have enough lacquer. It's gonna be close.

Should be dry enough to move. I'll go check.

[Leo G]

Going home. Tomorrow is another day.

[WarnerConstInc.]

Buy your own mixer.

All cabinet builders I know have them.

[Leo G]

It's not like it mixes stains all by itself. You still gotta know what you are doing.

[Bodger]

Buy your own mixer.

All cabinet builders I know have them.


What is it, like the computerized paint mixers at the paint stores?

[Leo G]

There is no computer for stains. Well, maybe basic stains, but I deal with 2, 3, 4, 5 step processes. No computer is gonna figure it out.

[Bodger]

So what's this stain mixer Warner speaks of? Is it controlled auto-measuring?

When you said you were still grinding the stone, I thought you meant you had something going on in the shop with a stone countertop. I thought WTF? He's doing his own stone now?

[IHI]

After several emails from you, I'm fairly certain your man cave is your "hide out" so you can partake in the internet porn boom. I think the only thing your staining is the kleenex:mad2::laugh3::laugh3:

[Leo G]

So what's this stain mixer Warner speaks of? Is it controlled auto-measuring?

When you said you were still grinding the stone, I thought you meant you had something going on in the shop with a stone countertop. I thought WTF? He's doing his own stone now?

The mixers is a bunch of pigment dispensers. It has a graduated system so you can make precise measurements consistently. It has a mixing motor to keep everything stirred. It goes off every four hours for about 10 minutes.

You have to know what you are doing. I was in there with him mixing up a custom stain and it was a bit bright. He said add some white. HUH? White? So I did and it worked. I would have never thought about adding white to a yellow-brown stain to make it less bright.

[naptownCr]

mixing or matching a stain is voodoo magic stuff. i have worked with painters who would walk into a room with some shite paint and a rack on=f pigment and mix some paint that was a dead match. beyond my skills

[Leo G]

Paint is actually pretty easy. There is color and sheen.

With stain there is color, depth, brightness, opacity, layering, dye layers, shading layers and a few other aspects that paint don't have. Plus when you use stains, there is a dye to pigment ratio. You can apply the stain and it might look very dull and brown. But apply a clear to it and the red dye that was in the mix jumps out at you. Or you could have a brown stain that is just brown when the clear is applied. Way more complicated than matching paint.

[Bodger]

That's why I refused to stain most of the stuff I've built unless the client brought me the stain, we did a test piece, and they signed off on my warning that it might not look EXACTLY like the test piece due to the variant degrees of hardness to the wood. I used conditioner and all that, but I had lots of problems with stained pieces.

It's not something I enjoy all that much anyway and I'm not good at it. After a while I found a great stain guy down in east LA. I'd much rather build stuff than fuss with stinky stains and ruin every damn work shirt and pants I own.

Just something I could never get the hang of or develop an affinity for.

[kornerking]

Paint is actually pretty easy. There is color and sheen.

With stain there is color, depth, brightness, opacity, layering, dye layers, shading layers and a few other aspects that paint don't have. Plus when you use stains, there is a dye to pigment ratio. You can apply the stain and it might look very dull and brown. But apply a clear to it and the red dye that was in the mix jumps out at you. Or you could have a brown stain that is just brown when the clear is applied. Way more complicated than matching paint.

Bullshit, that's the color the customer is getting.

You did say brown, right?:laugh3:

[Bodger]

Bullshit, that's the color the customer is getting.

You did say brown, right?:laugh3:

Exactly.
It's brown. You said brown, I gave brown. I don't remember anything about any brown drapes that had to be matched or some semi-camel butt brown carpet you saw at the home show with a hint of mauve when the poly finish went on.

It's brown. Pay me. :grin:

[WarnerConstInc.]

Do-do brown?

[naptownCr]

Do-do brown?

there is a contractor? type around Annapolis
DOO DOO Brown
he has DOO DOO BROWN IS BACK IN TOWN painted all over his truck.
This guy is an anything for a buck kind of guy.

[Taylordhome]

This got out of hand really quickly!
~Holly

[Leo G]

Best thing is the MOD is one of the perps.

Gotchya.

[naptownCr]

Next time I see his truck I will post a picture

[Leo G]

So now you're gonna stalk the guy? :laugh3:

[Bodger]

there is a contractor? type around Annapolis
DOO DOO Brown
he has DOO DOO BROWN IS BACK IN TOWN painted all over his truck.
This guy is an anything for a buck kind of guy.


Well, I'd like to meet this dude.
"How do you do Doo Doo?"

[naptownCr]

So now you're gonna stalk the guy? :laugh3:
No but I do see his truck from time to time and I carry a camera with me these days.

[kornerking]

This got out of hand really quickly!
~Holly

I hate to say it Holly, but get used too it. :grin:

Those Eastern members just don't know how to stay on target. They work hard all week and this is the only way to let off a little steam. Catch them on Tuesday and they are a a little more organized. :rolleyes3:

[Leo G]

I work 7 days a week, there is no Tuesday. There is only the next workday.

[kornerking]

Serious Question, Why do you work 7 days a week?

[Leo G]

I work when I have work. I never know when it will start. Plus I am a single businessman and there is always something to do. I have plenty of projects due and I need to get them done. Everything takes longer than anticipated and there is always something to interfere with getting something done.

Right now I am busy, in a few weeks I might be twiddling my thumbs like Bodger. I don't know. My work always comes in spurts. And of course everybody needs it yesterday. I have never had jobs come in one at a time in a nice orderly pace. They come in in 3's or 4's. And they all want to have similar start/finish dates.

I don't like it, but the only way for me to have weekends off would be to refuse jobs. And I am not in a position right now to refuse work. Last year strained my bank account and I have to fill it back up.

[Leo G]

OK, well, I'm off (at least that what my doctor says). Back to the grind. Today will bring in a check. I am letting the entertainment center go today. I am putting the SS sink and butcherblock cabinet surrounds together and continuing on the building of a cherry hutch. Plus the shop is getting messy and I might push the broom around.

I'll still be keeping an eye on all of you. So mind your P's and Q's.

[kornerking]

I understand that at times it does become neccessary. When it becomes habit that's another story in my mind. I used to feel that I needed to be on 24/7 as well. The problem was I let the work expand to fill the time.. When I made the decision to regulate my hrs I became much more focused and productive. Some of the things that I did was to set up outsourcing for doors etc. This allowed me to manage the peaks . During slower times the work came back in house. I have been able too keep it even this way. Just a thought.

[Leo G]

Don't get me started on outsourcing. Gus and I have already been there.

[kornerking]

You have a problem w/ outsourcing. I've been there. Finally realized I could be an artist or I could be a business man. My wife won.

[Bodger]

Don't get me started on outsourcing. Gus and I have already been there.


How did that work out? I'm assuming not well.

[Leo G]

I have outsource three times. Each with a reputable company. And each time the time line that they set was missed. Causing problems with my clients and I. Nothing big, what can I do? But never the less problems with scheduling.

About half of my clients choose me because everything is done in house. They specifically state this to me. Also trying to keep the money in house.

[Bodger]

I outsourced once. I had decided to build a full kitchen cabinet job myself to make more money. Paint grade, but with shaker doors and drawers which I outsourced. About half of them had fit issues and had to go back and took forever. Added a good two weeks to the job I'd say.

[PA Woodbutcher]

I am self employeed, so my boss is pretty lenient. I don't turn work away, but am sure that I have lost work due to not being able to schedule it right away.

I knock off work 1 day a week to pick up my granddaughter (she's 3 so not much help). We spend the afternoon together, take in lunch, go to my supplier and maybe pick up some materials for the next day. Sometimes we just play with her blocks, read and talk....you know question and answer time.:laugh3:

I wouldn't trade my time with her for all the money in the world. (unless of course I NONE)

[kornerking]

P.A... Smart man.

I have outsourced for years. Overall I have been quite satisfied. Let me clarify where I am coming from:

Shop size-- 15,000 square feet. I have lot's of room
Equipment--- Good selection including high speed dovetailers. No cnc. Large finishing area.
Average labor costs $22.00 hr includes all OH

Average production per man hour when doing it all in house-- 50-60.00 hr
Average production per man hour when outsourcing-- 125-150.00 hr

I don't know how this compares to others but, I can't make money keeping it in-house. I would never set up a business making drawers and doors based on what I can buy them for. The additional manpower to produce them requires more of everything from management to toilet paper.

I'm not sure what a reputable company is, but not being able to produce on schedule doesn't fit . I don't buy from the cheapest. Typical turnaround is 1 week, but I order 2-3 weeks before I need them. That way if there are problems( and yes there can be) I have time to get them resolved. Most of the time the problem comes from my end. That said, I am usually have the order 2-3 months prior to install.

Does outsourcing require getting better organized? Yes it did.
I assume you work from a design program such as KCDW. This gives me all of my parts including doors and drawers.

Just some thoughts.

[Leo G]

Large shop, many employees. Different world.

[Bodger]

15K square feet. Gawd.
I would use 1500 of that for my projects and the rest for an indoor shooting range. :grin:

[WarnerConstInc.]

Large shop, many employees. Different world.

You are stubborn. I think that may be one of your quality's I like.:laugh3:

[Bodger]

You are stubborn. I think that may be one of your quality's I like.:laugh3:

Yeah.
Try working for him. :laugh3::laugh3::laugh3:

[kornerking]

Large shop, many employees. Different world.

Large shop yes, only need to use about 3500 ft. 3 employees. Average 1 kitchen a week installed. avg install 250 miles away. 40 hr weeks

When I did it all-- 10-12 employees, used 10,000 ft , avg 1.5 kitchens per week, I worked 7 days a week average 80 hrs. But I was an artist then.

Your right it is a different world Leo. But I made it a different world, because I wanted something different than the inside of my shop.

Just an observation.

Bodger, come on down.

[Bodger]

Large shop yes, only need to use about 3500 ft. 3 employees. Average 1 kitchen a week installed. avg install 250 miles away. 40 hr weeks

When I did it all-- 10-12 employees, used 10,000 ft , avg 1.5 kitchens per week, I worked 7 days a week average 80 hrs. But I was an artist then.

Your right it is a different world Leo. But I made it a different world, because I wanted something different than the inside of my shop.

Just an observation.

Bodger, come on down.


Love too.
Wow, 250 mile average install. Was that round trip?

[kornerking]

250 is a one way trip. Our shop is in way northern Minn. Our customer base is in the Twin Cities.
Leo, just so you understand, I am not being critical of you, I used the same rational for years. It was hard to change. I only offer my insights as a possible alternative. That is the beauty of this forum, we will get advice whether we want it or not.

[neolitic]

There you go,
spoiling a good argument
with that "Minnesota Nice." http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/neoliticman/smilie/smilieshifty.gif

[kornerking]

Who the hell asked you anyways.

[neolitic]

You are stubborn. I think that may be one of your quality's I like.:laugh3:

It is my God Given Right
to enjoy Leo's fight against outsourcing!
:grin:

[Leo G]

You are stubborn. I think that may be one of your quality's I like.:laugh3:

It is my God Given Right
to enjoy Leo's fight against outsourcing!
:grin:

Isn't it nice to have friends. I will try it again when I have to use doors that I can't easily make. But I find that I like to make everything myself. Pride, stupidity...not sure what it is. :laugh3:

[Eieio]

Isn't it nice to have friends. I will try it again when I have to use doors that I can't easily make. But I find that I like to make everything myself. Pride, stupidity...not sure what it is. :laugh3:

Stupidity it is. But, I am afflicted with the same problem.

[Leo G]

I'm leaning towards pride. You can lean towards stupidity. :laugh3:

[kornerking]

I might agree with the pride part . But I take a lot of pride in my paid for shop, paid for tools, paid for electricity, as well. The hard part for me was thinking I was giving up control, but I actually got control when I switched.