WAPO Article explains Opt Out Clause

[Century Man]

Finally a media report that backs up what we were told in our class that the "opt out" clause will be deleted from the rule upon implementation. Read the article here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/15/AR2010041506308_pf.html).

I installed windows today and the home owner said she called the EPA and was told, by a live person, she could use the opt out clause. Gotta love it.

[Blue]

I installed windows today and the home owner said she called the EPA and was told, by a live person, she could use the opt out clause. Gotta love it.

Could that be because its not D-Day yet? In other words the EPA official can't enforce anything yet until the actuall day the rule takes effect.

[Leo G]

I would bet on it is more likely that they are idiots.

[Bodger]

I would bet on it is more likely that they are idiots.


Just like when Paul called the EPA to inquire about something, I believe maybe it was the status of his application and certification.

The EPA person Paul was speaking with, when Paul mentioned RRP said:
"Never heard of it."

[Silvertree]

It was so weird when that happened, but of the 4 people I talked to all were friendly. I had called the regional office in Chicago.

[SLS-Construction]

Blue, has it correct - you also have to remember that the NLIC center is not staffed with EPA employees. It is a company that holds a contract with the EPA.

While Paul's example is funny, you have to think about how big that agency is & how focused their divisions are on just their "work" (Atlanta regional office only has 10 people focused on this as I recall). I bet if all the employees were required to keep up on all their regulation changes - nothing would ever get done... Hmmm that actually sounds like a good idea

Are they idiots - no they are very good at what they do, which is to make sure they remain funded / employed

[JasonW]

What I understand about the opt-out is that they have decided to rule on this by April 22. once they make the decision it will take 60 to 90 days to put into affect. That means (from my understanding) that a customer can still opt-out until June or July. That is only IF the EPA makes the ruling on schedule. This is doubtful seeing that it's the government and they are always behind on everything.

[J.Renza]

What I understand about the opt-out is that they have decided to rule on this by April 22. once they make the decision it will take 60 to 90 days to put into affect. That means (from my understanding) that a customer can still opt-out until June or July. That is only IF the EPA makes the ruling on schedule. This is doubtful seeing that it's the government and they are always behind on everything.

This whole mess it making it difficult to give out fair bids.
Since most of the work I have lined up is RRP related,but opt out could apply(no kids or PW) it would be nice to know.
I've waited for my supplier to run their sale with free window options(low-e,argon)
to help save HO some $,but with the timing on RRP they won't
be delivered till after it's implementation.
If I can save on the expense all the plastic,extra clean up,and testing,they'd be
a lot happier.
I guess the tax break they would have gotten for installing the windows
may have to get eaten up with the extra costs of RRP.
Go figure,the Gov offers tax credit for being energy efficient,
then they add extra costs to void any real cash benefit.

[Silvertree]

Didn't want to start another thread so:

Minnesota claims 310 certified firms within 100 miles of my zip code. I am not listed but have my cert so I don't care. They are slow to update their site.

We have 12,000 to 16,000 firms, this depends on what you call a firm.

My last plumber and I talked yesterday and he is not getting certified, I didn't ask why but he's now down the road as far as I am concerned. I have heard this often (not getting cert).

So, is this much ado about nothing?
I have read numerous posts about turning in non certified firms doing work.

Here's my take: We are creating a better class of illegal firms, slicker, smarter and ready to take advantage of this rule. Just because someone flies under the radar it doesn't mean they are crooks who do bad work.

[Leo G]

One of the favorite things I read in there was you can't do demo in the normal fashion. You can't cut it apart or bash it with a hammer because it makes to much dust. Now you can only pull it apart. If you build something good you aren't going to be pulling it apart. Again, they are thinking 2 dimensionally. They are only thinking about drywall. What about metal reinforced plaster. You can't pull that apart. It needs to be hit with a hammer to get the plaster off the mesh.

No Ma'am, we are not allowed to have hammers on site during a demolition. EPA rules say we cannot bash any materials for fear of releasing lead dust. But don't you worry Ma'am, we all have our EPA feather dusters to keep you safe.

[J.Renza]

Didn't want to start another thread so:

Minnesota claims 310 certified firms within 100 miles of my zip code. I am not listed but have my cert so I don't care. They are slow to update their site.

We have 12,000 to 16,000 firms, this depends on what you call a firm.

My last plumber and I talked yesterday and he is not getting certified, I didn't ask why but he's now down the road as far as I am concerned. I have heard this often (not getting cert).

So, is this much ado about nothing?
I have read numerous posts about turning in non certified firms doing work.

Here's my take: We are creating a better class of illegal firms, slicker, smarter and ready to take advantage of this rule. Just because someone flies under the radar it doesn't mean they are crooks who do bad work.

None of my regular subs have taken the class yet,and don't seem to be too concerned.
It took years to find reliable guys,now it's like we got to start all over again.
This RRP is becoming a virus.
I'll be forced to let the larger jobs slip by,till I can find certified subs I can work with.:mad:

[bconley]

You only need to have certified renovators when doing the lead work (demo), if your subs come in after demo and cleaning and don't do any demo over the exclusions, you are good to go.

[neolitic]

This whole mess it making it difficult to give out fair bids.
Since most of the work I have lined up is RRP related,but opt out could apply(no kids or PW) it would be nice to know.
I've waited for my supplier to run their sale with free window options(low-e,argon)
to help save HO some $,but with the timing on RRP they won't
be delivered till after it's implementation.
If I can save on the expense all the plastic,extra clean up,and testing,they'd be
a lot happier.
I guess the tax break they would have gotten for installing the windows
may have to get eaten up with the extra costs of RRP.
Go figure,the Gov offers tax credit for being energy efficient,
then they add extra costs to void any real cash benefit.

Exactly.
During the winter I had a window job,
and did some experimenting to see
what it might cost to comply.
I gave up on the exterior plastic deal
right away.
With 12" deep ivy, uneven ground,
and 12" of snow on top of that,
I could barely walk let alone work
or set up a ladder.
The only thing I could see was to
lay OSB over the visqueen.
Then I guess the OSB would have to be
wrapped and 86ed.
I'm sure all of the extra would have
more than eaten up the tax credit
and the 20% off sale.
Those things were what brought the job
into their budget to begin with.

[Century Man]

I am certified, my project manager is certified, our firm is certified, 2 window crews certified, door installer certified and remodel crew foreman certified.

"Vernon here's got a job. Vernon's got prospects. He's bona fide. What are you?" Penny Wharvey McGill, O Brother Where Art Thou

[Bodger]

One of the favorite things I read in there was you can't do demo in the normal fashion. You can't cut it apart or bash it with a hammer because it makes to much dust. Now you can only pull it apart. If you build something good you aren't going to be pulling it apart. Again, they are thinking 2 dimensionally. They are only thinking about drywall. What about metal reinforced plaster. You can't pull that apart. It needs to be hit with a hammer to get the plaster off the mesh.


Exactly. How the hell do they expect us to pull everything apart. How many times have we taken a Sawzall and cut out a 4X4 chunk of wall and walked it out to dumpster?
Are they really so addled as to believe that we can do things their way and keep the costs of even a modest job in line with a budget and fair market prices??

I am convinced that if we are certified and give a price for something and have added a realistic amount for RRP compliance, and a non-certified firm gives a lower price because they aren't going to do jack about lead, the average homeowner will go with the lowballer. Even after having the RRP fully disclosed and explained.
Or, as has been the case with my two prospects, not even take the time to understand what the RRP is. It's the contractor's problem. Let him or her make less.

[afkama]

Exactly.
During the winter I had a window job,
and did some experimenting to see
what it might cost to comply.
I gave up on the exterior plastic deal
right away.
With 12" deep ivy, uneven ground,
and 12" of snow on top of that,
I could barely walk let alone work
or set up a ladder.
The only thing I could see was to
lay OSB over the visqueen.
Then I guess the OSB would have to be
wrapped and 86ed.
I'm sure all of the extra would have
more than eaten up the tax credit
and the 20% off sale.
Those things were what brought the job
into their budget to begin with.

You guys seem to use ladders a lot more than we do.

[neolitic]

You guys seem to use ladders a lot more than we do.

Maybe you're taller? http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/neoliticman/smilie/smilielaughing.gif

[Silvertree]

Don't sweat the small stuff.
You can still demo any way you want. You just have to be clean afterwards.