Journeyman

[afkama]

In medievial times the apprentice was bound to his master for a number of years. He lived with the master as a member of the household, receiving most or all of their compensation in terms of food and lodging. An apprentice could not charge a fee for his days work (the French word journee refers to the time span of a day). After the years of apprenticeship the apprentice was absolved from his obligations . The guilds however would not allow a young craftsman without experience to be promoted to a craftsman master - they could only choose to be employed but many chose to roam about.

In parts of Europe, as in later medieval Germany, spending time as a journeyman, moving from one town to another to gain experience of different workshops, was an important part of the training of an aspirant master. Carpenters in Germany have retained the tradition of traveling journeymen even today, although only a small minority still practice it. In France, they were known as Compagnons.

In the mediaval times the number of years on the journey differed by the craftman arts. Only after half of the required journeyman years the craftsman would register with a guild for the right of apprentice master. After completing the journeyman years the journeyman would settle in a workshop of the guild and after some more years he would be allowed to make his masterpiece and to present to the guild. With their consent he would be promoted to a guild master and as such he was allowed to open his own guild workshop in town.

[orson]

I'm a bit envious of the relative simplicity of those olden times.

I've spent too much time learning different elements of different trades to be more than proficient at any one of them, far from mastery and in my current pursuits without the dedication to one trade to ever attain it.

On the other hand I don't have to worry about being conscripted or trampled by a knight. :2thumbsup:

[Bender]

In parts of Europe, as in later medieval Germany, spending time as a journeyman, moving from one town to another to gain experience of different workshops, was an important part of the training of an aspirant master. Carpenters in Germany have retained the tradition of traveling journeymen even today, although only a small minority still practice it. In France, they were known as Compagnons.

I did that for years in Denver. Jumped from shop to shop. Later I realized I had learned a neat trick from this guy and another from that guy. I firmly believe it has made me a well rounded Journeyman.

[Silvertree]

We had a Master/ Journeyman on contractor talk last year.

The thread had the guys that said your only a master if other guys say your a master.

Then some guys said your never a master unless a master says your a master.

Some guys said a master never says he's a master and the whole thing went south.

I had Master Carpenter on my business card, I felt I had earned it.

I had been referred as a master carpenter by the head of the Mpls Housing at a city meeting, I never felt I was as good as I had been presented and it was embarrassing at the time.
I could think of other guys who were better than me at many things.

I got over it and after time and have since been thanked by a few apprentices, the thanks I got gave me a different perspective, those apprentices will always hold me above others, for being a master carpenter?

No, I think it was for being the man who showed them that reaching beyond the norm is what separates journeyman from masters.

The truth is, we can all excel as masters at something and its worth making that a goal, you will never master all, but you can show by example what a younger person can aspire to and you can aspire to that yourself.

[afkama]

I'm a bit envious of the relative simplicity of those olden times.

I've spent too much time learning different elements of different trades to be more than proficient at any one of them, far from mastery and in my current pursuits without the dedication to one trade to ever attain it.

On the other hand I don't have to worry about being conscripted or trampled by a knight. :2thumbsup:

When I first started in the trades in the late sixties it was possible to know everything there was to know about building. Because of this it wasn't uncommon for contractors and carpenters to do everything from the foundation to the roof, with the exception of the drywall.

These days it is impossible to be truly proficient at all the trades. Even if you were able Know all that was essential to know at this moment, the rate of change would make that information obsolete within a short time. It would be impossible for one person to stay current even if they spent all their time researching.

Our industry has become quite complicated; we rely on specialization, teamwork and constant education to a greater degree every year.

These are very interesting and challenging times to be a contractor.

One thing is for sure - We did not build them better in the old days.

[EIEIO]

When I first started in the trades in the late sixties it was possible to know everything there was to know about building. Because of this it wasn't uncommon for contractors and carpenters to do everything from the foundation to the roof, with the exception of the drywall.

These days it is impossible to be truly proficient at all the trades. Even if you were able Know all that was essential to know at this moment, the rate of change would make that information obsolete within a short time. It would be impossible for one person to stay current even if they spent all their time researching.

Our industry has become quite complicated; we rely on specialization, teamwork and constant education to a greater degree every year.

These are very interesting and challenging times to be a contractor.

One thing is for sure - We did not build them better in the old days.

I tend to disagree and have a few 100 year old DC row houses that would tell you to kiss their asses on that point..

[Bender]

[/B]

I tend to disagree and have a few 100 year old DC row houses that would tell you to kiss their asses on that point..

I wanna go drinkin in DC with you man.

[ChrWright]

Depends on how you define "better".

[EIEIO]

I wanna go drinkin in DC with you man.

Any time any day just let me know..

[EIEIO]

Depends on how you define "better".

I can fall down drunk on the floor and not crack the joists under the hardwood floors.. :laugh3:

[Bender]

I don't know about 'master' (and I'm not big headed about what I do) but I know its getting harder and harder to find pros who know more than I do.

[Bender]

In medievial times the apprentice was bound to his master for a number of years. He lived with the master as a member of the household, receiving most or all of their compensation in terms of food and lodging. An apprentice could not charge a fee for his days work (the French word journee refers to the time span of a day). After the years of apprenticeship the apprentice was absolved from his obligations . The guilds however would not allow a young craftsman without experience to be promoted to a craftsman master - they could only choose to be employed but many chose to roam about.

In parts of Europe, as in later medieval Germany, spending time as a journeyman, moving from one town to another to gain experience of different workshops, was an important part of the training of an aspirant master. Carpenters in Germany have retained the tradition of traveling journeymen even today, although only a small minority still practice it. In France, they were known as Compagnons.

In the mediaval times the number of years on the journey differed by the craftman arts. Only after half of the required journeyman years the craftsman would register with a guild for the right of apprentice master. After completing the journeyman years the journeyman would settle in a workshop of the guild and after some more years he would be allowed to make his masterpiece and to present to the guild. With their consent he would be promoted to a guild master and as such he was allowed to open his own guild workshop in town.

BTW Good Post:2thumbsup:
We need to keep this place on track. Way too much random BS. Lets remember what we were trying to build. :Soapboxsmilie:

[afkama]

[/B]

I tend to disagree and have a few 100 year old DC row houses that would tell you to kiss their asses on that point..

That may be true, but it would be the exception. I've worked on a lot of 100 year old houses and a lot of what I have had to charge clients for was to remediate deficiencies in the original construction - lack of fire stops, undersized joists and rafters, weak and defective foundations, inadequate flashings etc etc.

By better, I mean....well better.

[Silvertree]

BTW Good Post:2thumbsup:
We need to keep this place on track. Way too much random BS. Lets remember what we were trying to build. :Soapboxsmilie:

Whatcha talkin bout Willis?

I like the journeyman/ master talk, and Afkama is right, things are more complicated.

I am an old timer, I could do the footing, lay the block, everything. Those days are over and I don't miss looking for a finish trowel under the framing nails which spilt in too my trim nails which are covered all over with quikset that a gallon of contact adhesive burst open on gluing my nail sets and coping saw into a gelatinous mess:rolleyes3:

[afkama]

We debated this for a while, and I remember that debate on CT. (It should have been titled "How many egos can dance on the head of a pin.")

We decided to include it in our list of Job titles.
The distinction for us is that whereas both a journeyman and a Master builder should be able to be self directing and competent to handle a job from start to finish, a master builder is expected to have strong coaching and mentoring skills as well.

[Silvertree]

Then you may remember my position, which was screw the false modesty, if you earned the title show respect for your accomplishments, nobody gains anything by playing with titles or pretending to be humble. I prefer a braggart to false modesty.

I've found one thing is true, most masters at a trade seem humbled by what they have accomplished, but I'll never forget talking to a 20 year old website builder, he arrogantly told me he was a webmaster, and I still wondered if I had made it after 35 years. Of course I could have been a total screw up after all that time, God knows I've had to fix a few of my mistakes.

[afkama]

Of course I could have been a total screw up after all that time, God knows I've had to fix a few of my mistakes.

The first (and the most brilliant) Master builder I worked with said:

"A journeyman isn't someone who never screws up. But when he does, he is able to duplicate that mistake on the other side and charge the client extra for the added architectural detail."

[Silvertree]

The first (and the most brilliant) Master builder I worked with said:

"A journeyman isn't someone who never screws up. But when he does, he is able to duplicate that mistake on the other side and charge the client extra for the added architectural detail."

There's some wisdom in that statement:2thumbsup:

It not whether we will make a mistake, its how the mistake is taken care of.

Those are my favorite stories when having a drink with other contractors, how we handle the problems we caused.

[nEighter]

What I think is cool about this group is that we all bring some interesting things to the table... whether it is LEN and his computer wizardry or any of you fooolieos who bring what you bring..

What I like about this oldschool way of thinking is the fact that you strive to complete the work, then strive to become the next level yet better.. you actually get recognized for doing so. I think that is cool. Kinda somewhat how the military works right? You do something you get honored. You do it well enough, you get promoted. Really cool way of working your way through the ranks to actually a better being. A better place. Place as in level of knowledge that has been earned.

[Bender]

Those are my favorite stories when having a drink with other contractors, how we handle the problems we caused.

The Roosters Meeting!

Dad would meet up with a bunch of contractors once a week for beers and talk painting and a little construction. Good time for me to be a fly on the wall:)

They became know as The Roosters Meeting. (No hens allowed)

[Bodger]

I've always been a fan of Duncan Phyfe and his amazing work. I think Phyfe was a true master. I don't think I could truthfully refer to myself as a master at anything.

[Leo G]

I am not a master carpenter.