Is this a.......?

[WarnerConstInc.]

Sorry Leo, I tried very diligently to take a good picture but, the lighting sucked and I kept getting glare.


This is being used as a base cap and I think for some banding on a bay window.

I can't remember, there was 3 floors.

It is walnut.

What I want to know is if this is a piece of chair rail or something, that has had the bottom notched so it could be used as a cap.

[Leo G]

How tall is it?

[WarnerConstInc.]

2 3/8" tall

7/8" thick

[Leo G]

A little small to be a chair rail. But I could see it being used for one. Kinda big to be used as a base cap unless you are using a pretty substantial board for the flat part of the base. It's possible that part of the molding was either cut off or not milled.

[WarnerConstInc.]

It sits on top of a 10" base board.

If that part was not rabbeted out, I bet that 'cap' would be right at 3" tall, it not a bit bigger.

I am going to go look at a couple mill shops in town and see if they have a knife that matches.

Trying to see if I should look for a chair rail or cap profile.

I think they cut this profile up and used for a lot of the different detail elements on the windows, base and case.

[Leo G]

Are you looking for a chair rail?

[WarnerConstInc.]

Are you looking for a chair rail?

No, I'm looking for that matching profile.

I need a bunch for stuff that is missing or screwed up.

I just wondered if I should look to a different type, you know it is being used as a cap but, it looks like they altered it for the use.

It's from like 1882 man.

[Leo G]

I've looked at way to many profiles in the last minutes. I have come to the conclusion that it is more of a casing than it is a chairrail. Look here (http://www.mirror-reflections.com/catalog.php)

Put 2.375 to 4" and search through the catalog. I found a few that were similar, but none exact.

[neolitic]

Looks like maybe a panel cap.
Like over a wainscot?
With a 10" mop board that isn't too
out of scale for a base cap either though.

[Silvertree]

That's not what it is (base cap) although you could use it for that.

The piece goes up to the ceiling with the notch facing up, you then can hang pictures on wires from it. Little hooks go into the notch so you can hang or move pictures or artwork without putting nails in the wall.

Its called picture molding.

[Leo G]

I disagree with that assumption Paul I have seen several versions and most have a bead on the top.

[neolitic]

I'm with Leo on that.
Never saw a picture rail with
a rabbet that big.

Still looks like the panel mould
family to me....
http://www.mirror-reflections.com/catalog.php?page=1&type=PANEL%20MOULDS&minlength=2.375&maxlength=3&catalog_number=&submit=Search

[Silvertree]

au contraire mes ami,

That's French!

It is indeed picture molding, that's why the rabbit has a little back bevel, it was made with both the rounded end and the rabbit.

I love like we disagree, I love it when I'm right, and I am right this time:2thumbsup:

[Leo G]

OK Paul. Prove it.

Oh...did I just say that................

[Leo G]

http://houseofantiquehardware.com/s.nl/sc.13/category.144/.f

http://swanpicturehangers.com/molding.shtml

http://www.woodworksofpeoria.com/picture-rail-molding

[Silvertree]

Picture rail molding with rabbit

[Silvertree]

Picture rail molding with rabbit

You didn't think I'd come to a gunfight with a knife, did you?

[Leo G]

Look at the molding Paul. The moldings I referenced and the one that you did have a stout portion to support the weight of the picture. While Darcy's molding rabbet leaves a dainty portion that would be prone to breakage.

[Leo G]

The tilt in the bevel prevents chipout while the molding is being fed through the molder. It makes for a cleaner mold on the back and gives a bit of leeway when you are applying it over another board or molding.

[neolitic]

Look at the molding Paul. The moldings I referenced and the one that you did have a stout portion to support the weight of the picture. While Darcy's molding rabbet leaves a dainty portion that would be prone to breakage.

What he said.


Looks like a butter knife.......

[Silvertree]

I agree the profile is cut more like a cap, but over the years I have demoed or repaired a few rabbited picture rails, and Leo, I spent the first 10 years remodeling homes in Watertown, Litchfield, Thomaston, ect, and you know the New England settlers mixed lots of moldings as they added on to their homes.

[Leo G]

It is always possible that someone along the line use that molding as a picture hanging molding. But that was not its original design. Some sort of a panel or a cap.

[Silvertree]

Damn you guys, you got me on the bevel maybe, I assumed that was so the hook wouldn't slide.

But still, I have seen more rounded picture rails, but have also seen the rabbited rails.

As to the profile, it does seem more like cap, or else its "PICTURE FRAME" as in art work frames used for another purpose, so were not done yet.

[afkama]

As someone who works on predominately Victorians I am sure this is panel molding.

I've seen that exact profile in situ many times.

Leo's right about picture rail, it always has a rounded top, to accomodate the hanging hardware.

[neolitic]

I agree the profile is cut more like a cap, but over the years I have demoed or repaired a few rabbited picture rails, and Leo, I spent the first 10 years remodeling homes in Watertown, Litchfield, Thomaston, ect, and you know the New England settlers mixed lots of moldings as they added on to their homes.

Not to put too fine a point on it,
but Darcy ain't in New England.

[Leo G]

As someone who works on predominately Victorians I am sure this is panel molding.

I've seen that exact profile in situ many times.

Leo's right about picture rail, it always has a rounded top, to accommodate the hanging hardware.

Not always, but mostly. It would not have a pointed top though.

[Leo G]

Not to put too fine a point on it,
but Darcy ain't in New England.

:laugh3::laugh3:

[Leo G]

So after all of this Darcy, do you have your answer?

[neolitic]

He is communing with his peace pipe.

[WarnerConstInc.]

I had to make the woman happy, that is why I bailed.

I think it is a panel molding, or along those lines.

I hope I can find the profile at the few places I go.

It is nice to see you guys argue over base cap vs. cap and trade!!

[neolitic]

It sure is more fun. http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/neoliticman/smilie/smilieclap.gif

[neolitic]

Here's one reason not to discount
it as base cap, though I haven't seen it
this big, I have seen it close to the size you have.
http://tinytimbers.com/mill_trims5.htm

So now, let us in on what you're up to here.
What? Where?
Pix!

[WarnerConstInc.]

Here's one reason not to discount
it as base cap, though I haven't seen it
this big, I have seen it close to the size you have.
http://tinytimbers.com/mill_trims5.htm

So now, let us in on what you're up to here.
What? Where?
Pix!

I will do. I have 3 floors worth of this to add back and repair.

Turns out I think Leo was right about it being a casing profile.
The windows are just 1" flat trim with a banding around the outside and then they took this trim profile and wrapped it around around the outside of the window trim and door trim.

They rabbeted that notch out of it and used it for base cap, it was also used to trim out the stair skirts, and the ripped off 1/2 of the profile and used it for some panel work under the windows.

I have a couple doors and windows that something important is missing from the tops, I just can't put my finger on it though.

I will head back over later today and take a few pictures.


Damn, it will run me 2.35/lf for it in walnut. I will have to site relief it for my base caps. It will also cost me 200 bucks for the tooling work.

[Leo G]

Don't listen to me. I haven't a clue what I'm talking about.:laugh4:

Aren't you suppose to be installing some windows somewhere? :laugh:

I went through a lot of the Mirror Image DFX profiles and that is the conclusion I came up with. Looked to be the most likely candidate because of the shape and size. It was just deductive reasoning.

But I knew it wasn't a picture hanging molding. (Jab Jab Paul ;) :grin:)

[WarnerConstInc.]

It is raining, it is supposed to rain tomorrow as well.:smash:

I am having 2 different mill shops price it to me.
I hope the one throws in the tooling cost, they are my lumberyard after all.

I stripped aluminum siding and cut down a bunch of bushes this weekend Leo.:smash:

[Leo G]

I worked Saturday and on Sunday put together a new grill, got some mulch and sat on my butt.

[PA Woodbutcher]

Just made some of that last month. I believe the original molding was painted chestnut. Was able to come pretty close with a router bit, but because of the 7/8 thickness I also had to run the upper end across a 45 tapered bit also. It came out pretty good, but would never match end to end. From one wall to the other you would have a tough time telling the difference.

[Allrounder]

regardless of what it is or isn't, bring a sample to any good millwork shop and they can duplicate it for you. I'm lucky that I have a great shop near me that can duplicate anything.

[Leo G]

Ya, for a price. And depending on the LF needed. I can make moldings by hand using routers and hand tools for final shaping. But I limit that to a certain LF range. After say 32' and a complex molding I want nothing to do with it.

Make a set of cutters and run it on the W&H and be done with it. A cutter for that size molding would be about would be about $120 and take a week to come in. But not sure I would do it for $2.35. Usually I don't run anything for less that $2/LF and that is my band molding. But I would do the rabbet cut for him on a specified LF of molding if he requested.

[neolitic]

regardless of what it is or isn't, bring a sample to any good millwork shop and they can duplicate it for you. I'm lucky that I have a great shop near me that can duplicate anything.

He said he's got at least two
who will make it.
He's just price shopping now.

[WarnerConstInc.]

Hey, price shopping is a dirty word.

I actually have 3 mill shops withing 10 minutes of me.

One won't run Walnut because of who buys their shavings (walnut is bad for horses).

Leo-you think 2.35/lf is expensive or cheap for that? It will come out of 5/4 x 4" walnut.
My only issue is the one place won't be able to get me any sticks longer then 8'.

I really hope the lumberyard will come through on throwing the tooling in, as there is nearly 1000/lf of this particular molding.

[Leo G]

Cheap. But you are in a totally different pricing zone than I am.

Another thing is the walnut. Is it going to be all brown colored or mixed with the sap wood?

All brown would be much pricier.

[WarnerConstInc.]

All heart wood. That profile in poplar would only cost me about .78/lf.

Hardwood moldings are cheap around here, so I still can't figure out why people bitch so much about the prices.

I can crown a whole floor of a house for about 500 bucks worth of trim, 3 1/4" solid poplar.
Even soft maple is cheap for built-ins and book cases and such.

[Leo G]

For Poplar I pay right around $2/BF so a LF of 4" is 66¢ so he is charging you 12¢/LF to run the molding.

So that means he is charging you $6.69/BF for heartwood Walnut.

[WarnerConstInc.]

For Poplar I pay right around $2/BF so a LF of 4" is 66¢ so he is charging you 12¢/LF to run the molding.

So that means he is charging you $6.69/BF for heartwood Walnut.

You make it sound so dirty.:laugh3:

I can't remember the last time I had to seek out Walnut.

I really need to source some Butternut as well.

[Leo G]

Is that you posting on woodweb about the clearcoat on butternut?

[WarnerConstInc.]

Is that you posting on woodweb about the clearcoat on butternut?

No, I have never been over there.

The butternut would be to replace/repair the damaged or missing mop boards, or base boards for some of you.
They are 1" thick by about 10" tall.

[Leo G]

Ya, good luck with that. Plan on glue ups.

I was wondering why you were going under the name of Trey.

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/finishing.pl?read=654510

[WarnerConstInc.]

Ya, good luck with that. Plan on glue ups.

I think it can be found around here.

I sourced some before but, I equated it to be like buying drugs. It was full of shady phone conversations and meeting behind gas stations.

Finding Cypress was worse.


I like the guy that said use Maple.

[Leo G]

I can get cypress. Pc of cake.

[WarnerConstInc.]

I can get cypress. Pc of cake.

I can get local species any day of the week.

http://www.wiblelumber.com/

Anything that is not from around here, is hard to find. There is a big hardwood dealer about 30 minutes from here but, they always seem to have a bunch of stuff on consignment or that a private individuals have there for sale. For some reason they have to always call the person and either call you back or give the owner your number and he calls you.

It is a bunch of bs.

[Leo G]

One phone call and 4-5 days later it arrives at my door.

[WarnerConstInc.]

One phone call and 4-5 days later it arrives at my door.

I still like the thrill of the hunt.

[Leo G]

Well, I can do that too. But they charge retail prices.

I just had a hardwood dealer locate shop less than a 1/4 mile down the road from me. I got some nice, in the rough, Cherry for $3/BD Ft. Normally I pay about $1.25 more. But I get it skip planed (15/16) and SLR.

[WarnerConstInc.]

That extra 1.25 would pay for that ts-75 you want pretty quickly.

Where is the woohaahaaa smiley?

[Bender]

That's not what it is (base cap) although you could use it for that.

The piece goes up to the ceiling with the notch facing up, you then can hang pictures on wires from it. Little hooks go into the notch so you can hang or move pictures or artwork without putting nails in the wall.

Its called picture molding.

Thanks, even if you're wrong;) I don't think I've ever heard of picture molding.

"It will come out of 5/4 x 4" walnut."
What does that mean?

[neolitic]

It means the rough stock is 1-1/4" thick.
Five quarters of an inch.....

[Leo G]

Yep, the old man is right. Rough lumber is measured in quarters. Standard measurements are 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 8/4, 10/4, and 12/4. But you can get 7/4 for making 1 3/8" doors if you buy enough. And if you are dealing with a Sawyer you can get anything you want. Basically, subtract 1/4" and this is what you can get out of the rough board as a smooth, flat, true board.

[Bodger]

And SLR is Straight Line Ripped, correct?
But that edge will still need to be run through the jointer to smooth it out?

[WarnerConstInc.]

And SLR is Straight Line Ripped, correct?
But that edge will still need to be run through the jointer to smooth it out?

for the most part yes.

I can get glue joint ready straight line's from my rail saw.

[Leo G]

There are two kinds of SLR saws. Standard and glue line quality. Usually you can make a standard work if you put a nice enough blade on it.

You would want to joint and/or sand the saw marks on it just like anything that was going to be made into something nice.