California Fights Pex

[ChrWright]

http://www.remodeling.hw.net/plumbing/california-pex-battle-continues.aspx

A years-long battle between the PEX plastic plumbing pipe industry and its opponents is continuing in California. A win for the industry was short-lived when a court order on June 17 directed the California Building Standards Commission (CBSC) to cancel its approval of the material for residential construction.

Despite its best efforts, the cross-linked polyethylene (PEX) industry has been unable to have its products added to California’s plumbing code for very long. Opponents of the products, including environmentalists and construction unions, have repeatedly filed lawsuits impeding the industry’s progress.

“Up until August 2009, PEX was not in the California plumbing code, and contractors had to rely on their local jurisdictions to approve use of the product,” says Dale Stroud, business strategy manager for PEX manufacturer Uponor. “We know plumbers and their customers have been looking for a product that’s safe, clean, and environmentally friendly, but there’s been resistance against putting it into the state code.”

[Silvertree]

And why are they against it, are there good reasons or is it just lobbying to protect special interests.

I did my downstairs bath with Pex supplies 2 years ago, saved me a lot of work.

[Bender]

Probably because its too easy to install.

[SLS-Construction]

Same reason as Chicago:
Opponents of the products... construction unions

It is called job security - copper requires more hours, skill, etc... to install. Their mantra is - At no time should you substitute hours for a superior product, in fact seeing that you brought this up, the heat put off by the torches exceeds OSHA's limits so their is now a mandatory 5 minute break after each set of joints is sweated together (just kidding on the last part - but it wouldn't surprise me if they tried that one)

[afkama]

And why are they against it, are there good reasons or is it just lobbying to protect special interests.

I did my downstairs bath with Pex supplies 2 years ago, saved me a lot of work.

This battle has been going on for a while. There is some genuine concern here over PEX.

Potential Environmental, Health and Economic Risks Posed by PEX
Contamination of drinking water

The PEX EIR found that methyl tertiary-butyl ether (MTBE) and tert-Butyl alcohol can leach from PEX in amounts that exceed taste, odor and health guidelines set by the State of California for drinking water. The PEX EIR found that PEX pipes can initially leach as much as 290 ppb of MTBE. The California Department of Public Health and the California Office of Health Hazard Assessment have established a drinking water taste and odor standard of 5 ppb for MTBE and a drinking water public health goal and maximum contaminant level of 13 ppb. The PEX EIR also found that PEX can leach ethyl tertiary butyl ether (ETBE), a chemical in the same family as MTBE, in amounts exceeding 100 ppb. An expert toxicologist report commissioned as part of the PEX EIR found that the leaching of ETBE from PEX pipe could contribute to taste and odor impacts, and could potentially lead to adverse health effects. The PEX EIR found that PEX pipe is susceptible to permeation by outside contaminants such as pesticides, oil, gasoline, benzene and termiticides. Numerous studies and articles submitted to the State of California comparing potable water pipe materials, including variants of PEX, polybutylene, polypropylene, CPVC, copper and steel, have found that PEX displayed the strongest biofilm formation and the strongest initial promotion of the growth of Legionella bacteria.

Failure of PEX Pipe and PEX Fittings

Failures of PEX and PEX fittings have resulted in consumer lawsuits in Washington, Nevada, Minnesota, Colorado and numerous other areas across the United States. California’s January 2009 approval of PEX relies upon the less-protective PEX chlorine resistance standard ASTM F2023, instead of the much superior NSF P171 standard. ASTM F2023 only assures an adjusted lifetime of 25 years, while the NSF P171 standard assures a 40 year adjusted lifetime. At least one reputable PEX manufacturer (Lubrizol Advanced Materials, Inc.) has questioned the adequacy of this standard since it only results in “an expected service life of 25 years, five years less than the traditional home loan.” According to Lubrizol Advanced Materials, Inc., polybutylene pipe passed ASTM F2023 and still failed miserably in U.S. water conditions. California’s January 2009 approval of PEX fails to provide any mitigation to address the known risk of PEX pipe failure due to exposure to sunlight. Even short term exposure to sunlight can dramatically reduce the resistance of PEX to chlorine and result in premature rupture of the pipe. Studies show just a one-week exposure to sunlight may reduce the chlorine resistance lifetime of some PEX pipes by half; with a two week exposure completely depleting PEX of any chlorine resistance. The lack of an enforceable standard to address sunlight exposure creates a liability risk to contractors and installers because there is almost no way to tell why PEX pipe has prematurely failed or to determine how long PEX pipe has been exposed to sunlight.

Lack of Recyclability

Because it is a thermoset plastic, PEX cannot be melted down and reused. A 2005 report by the San Francisco Department of the Environment found that PEX was the only type of plastic piping that no plastic recycler would accept. Copper pipe generally contains around 70% recycled material and has almost a 100% recycling rate.

Toxic Smoke

PEX produces toxic smoke when burned in building fires.

This one is an issue for me :ASTM F2023 only assures an adjusted lifetime of 25 years

PEX doesn't do well with chlorine and this issue is more accute in recirc systems.

Even some of the plastics manufacturers have gone on record as saying the EIR submitted by the Pex industry was based on faulty assumptions.

[WarnerConstInc.]

Kali is banning MDF, what does one expect from that state anymore.

[Bodger]

California legislators have long gone over the rainbow. They spend their time creating nonsense laws and giving the illegals Carte Blanche. No wonder the state is broke and people and businesses are leaving in droves.

Instead of balancing the budget the "leaders" of this state are busy trying to figure out how to make every yuppie queer in San Francisco drive a one-seat car that runs on sea water.

[afkama]

Kali is banning MDF, what does one expect from that state anymore.

I don't know where you get your information from Warner.

In 2007, the California Air Resources Board approved regulations that will, over time, dramatically reduce the levels of formaldehyde that can be emitted from interior panel products such as hardwood plywood, medium-density fiberboard, and particleboard.

This was a response to the crap that was being imported from China.

Formaldehyde was reclassified by the International Agency for Cancer Research in 2004 from “probable human carcinogen” to “known human carcinogen.

It is expected that the reguation will increase the cost by $3-$6 per sheet.

It seems to me that any reputable contractor would favor this regulation.

[afkama]

California legislators have long gone over the rainbow. They spend their time creating nonsense laws and giving the illegals Carte Blanche. No wonder the state is broke and people and businesses are leaving in droves.


The legislature didn't have anything to do with this. It was CARB.

I don't see how you could be opposed to this. Formaldehyde is a known carcinigen and we work with this stuff.

[afkama]

Back to the original topic.

None of my plumbers (Not a union member among them) are reccomending PEX for potable water.

The reasons they cite are the potential damage to PEX from being exposed to sunlight prior to cover and the issue with bacterial growth if the system isn't used for a period of time.

My subs seem to be solidly behind copper.

What feedback are you getting?

[Bodger]

The legislature didn't have anything to do with this. It was CARB.



Oh....never mind then.:grin:

Better for CARB to do it anyway, the CA lawmakers were busy with more important matters anyway, like SB 135, the bill that makes it illegal in this state to cut off a cow's tail.
The annual budget for the senate and assembly last year was $260.7 million. 696 bills were signed into law, that's an average of $374,540 for every new piece of legislation enacted.

Cow's tails.
But there's no money to enforce the contractor licensing laws out here.

[Bodger]

Back to the original topic.

None of my plumbers (Not a union member among them) are reccomending PEX for potable water.

The reasons they cite are the potential damage to PEX from being exposed to sunlight prior to installation and the issue with bacterial growth if the system isn't used for a period of time.

My subs seem to be solidly behind copper.

What feedback are you getting?


I'm not seeing PEX being used by any plumbers out here, so I suppose one could say that is non-verbal feedback. Not saying it isn't done, but I've never seen it.

On one of my projects where there was radiant heat floor tubing set into Warmboard sub-floor, I believe PEX was used, or it was certainly a similar product by appearance. Not for potable water, but now I have some concerns about the sunlight factor causing tube failure.

As soon as the subfloor goes down, with the Warmboard system, the tubing has to be installed before the walls are framed or it is too difficult to route under sole plates, etc. So that tubing was in direct sunlight for quite a while.

[neolitic]

Same reason as Chicago:


It is called job security - copper requires more hours, skill, etc... to install. Their mantra is - At no time should you substitute hours for a superior product, in fact seeing that you brought this up, the heat put off by the torches exceeds OSHA's limits so their is now a mandatory 5 minute break after each set of joints is sweated together (just kidding on the last part - but it wouldn't surprise me if they tried that one)

Chicago codes are still all about that fire.

[neolitic]

I don't much care, because
I have already banned
plastic potable water lines, and MDF
for use around me.

[Bodger]

Chicago codes are still all about that fire.


AKA the O'Leary Laws.

[Leo G]

I don't much care, because
I have already banned
plastic potable water lines, and MDF
for use around me.

I wouldn't put PEX in my house.

And as for MDF, it has its place. It is inexpensive and paints extremely well. For cheap painted jobs it can sell the job. Just because of the economy I have used it a few times lately. But I haven't used it much in my career other than jigs and fixtures.

[afkama]

I don't much care, because
I have already banned
plastic potable water lines, and MDF
for use around me.

After years of using it in cabinet shops I developed an allergy to MDF.

If I spend any time where it is being cut I develop a migraine that lasts for a full day.

My understanding is that they have to add chemicals to PEX to make it resistant to Chlorine. Using it in a recirc system which we install as a standard, causes the piping to be exposed to more chlorine as the water circulates.

The fact that it contains MTBE makes me nervous. MTBE is a gasoline additive. This stuff is the main concern when it comes to leaking gasoline storage tanks. There hasn't been enough research done on MTBE to know what the health risks are, if any.

I probably have nothing to worry about though. I'm sure the industry is looking out for my best interests and their profits are only a secondary concern. The paint industry is a good model to follow.

I'll need to see a lot more proof that this stuff is safe before I risk it on my jobs.

[Bodger]

MDF dust is an insidious pollutant. I can't stand to be anywhere near it.

[Silvertree]

I have 50 year old gal pipe except for my new bath, its still clean including l's and shutoffs. i see no reason to change it.

I am ok with PEX, its popular with plumbers in Minnesota.

[afkama]

I have 50 year old gal pipe except for my new bath, its still clean including l's and shutoffs. i see no reason to change it.

I am ok with PEX, its popular with plumbers in Minnesota.

I can understand why it would be popular. The labor to install is a lot less.

Lead paint was popular too, because it was a cheap way to get a paint that covered well.

[Silvertree]

In a sense PEX could be a better way to plumb, cheaper and faster. On the health side big business has risked our health and environment and still does, BP and their cost cutting measures.

I find it difficult to believe anything nowdays and am cynical for the most part.

Potable water and plastic has a spotty history of working well together, but PEX studies show no ill effects from using it. True or not? I don't know.

Its fast and safe to install, is it safer than the millions of homes built with lead based solder?

As for lead in paint, that's clearly a travesty since lead has been shown to be a poison for over 2000 years, add the fact that contractors and not lead interests (paint companies, mines) are paying for the cleanup and I am ready to rumble.

For now, unless proven otherwise I am behind PEX. In Minnesota its a freeze resistant plumbing. A consideration in this area.

[Eieio]

Pex is crap..

I would not allow it any where in any of my houses.. I use it for repairs until the plumber comes to do the real work.. It's garbage lazy ass plumbing for morons at it's finest..

The plumbers should be against it so that idiots, DIY's and hack plumber don't destroy homes when that crap starts to leak or come loose..


MDF is garbage plywood as well, I used MDF to sit my real plywood on top for building stuff..

Did I make myself clear?

[Silvertree]

SO Rory, are you saying you don't like PEX and MDF?

Can you be a little clearer on this?

[neolitic]

No, we want to know
what you really think.

[Bodger]

Pex is crap..

I would not allow it any where in any of my houses.. I use it for repairs until the plumber comes to do the real work.. It's garbage lazy ass plumbing for morons at it's finest..

The plumbers should be against it so that idiots, DIY's and hack plumber don't destroy homes when that crap starts to leak or come loose..


MDF is garbage plywood as well, I used MDF to sit my real plywood on top for building stuff..

Did I make myself clear?

I learn something new ever day. I didn't know MDF was plywood. :grin::grin:

[WarnerConstInc.]

Pex is way easier to fish in a remodel.

There is hardly any copper run around here anymore.

I have slowly been converting the 6 different kinds of plumbing in my house to Pex.
No it is not because I can't solder.

I like it for the fact that I don't have to expose old timber to extreme heat or direct flames.

MDF in Cali, I got that info in regards to the skill x bench and Festool looking into making sure their MFT tops pass California emissions.

You guys just want to make that state it's own country?

[Bender]

God forbid a little MTBE mix with the other 140 chemicals in tap water:rolleyes3:

[Bodger]

Pex is way easier to fish in a remodel.

There is hardly any copper run around here anymore.

I have slowly been converting the 6 different kinds of plumbing in my house to Pex.
No it is not because I can't solder.

I like it for the fact that I don't have to expose old timber to extreme heat or direct flames.

MDF in Cali, I got that info in regards to the skill x bench and Festool looking into making sure their MFT tops pass California emissions.

You guys just want to make that state it's own country?

They might as well call it Mexico and be done with it. I'm going to Arizona sometime in the next few weeks and scope out the possibilities.

[Eieio]

If a plumber showed up on my job with Pex I would whoop his ass and strangle him with it.. Clearer?

[neolitic]

If a plumber showed up on my job with Pex I would whoop his ass and strangle him with it.. Clearer?

So, you're more or less
on the fence then?

[Blue]

If a plumber showed up on my job with Pex I would whoop his ass and strangle him with it.. Clearer?
Really? Thats all you see here. I had no idea nobody liked it. Until now.

So I have to go back to copper now to hang out here? You guys are killing me.

[afkama]

Well since Rory approves of PEX I suppose I should keep an open mind.

[SLS-Construction]

Really? Thats all you see here. I had no idea nobody liked it. Until now.

So I have to go back to copper now to hang out here? You guys are killing me.

You can still hang out with me :laugh3:

Pfft - all the democrats scream, We believe in Change - try introducing "change" in those states though and you get the pex over my dead body arguments. In fact while we are on the subject - can someone please name one item that is not supposedly harmful to you in any situation?

Guys it has been in use in Europe for over 30 years & still undergoing a high pressure test without a leak.

[Eieio]

Really? Thats all you see here. I had no idea nobody liked it. Until now.

So I have to go back to copper now to hang out here? You guys are killing me.

CPVC or Copper

[Leo G]

H2O, AKA distilled water.

[WarnerConstInc.]

CPVC or Copper

cpvc, really?

Now there is some junk stuff.

[Eieio]

cpvc, really?

Now there is some junk stuff.

Chris said the same thing.. What don't you like about it?

[Blue]

Chris said the same thing.. What don't you like about it?
Glue joint, not enough connecters, flimsy, embarrasing.....etc.

It would be like showing up to the site with the little pink hammer that comes with your wifes sewing machine.

[SLS-Construction]

H2O, AKA distilled water.

Hyponatremia

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-drinking-too-much-water-can-kill

Hold your wee for a WII - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16614865/

And then one can't forget drowning

Next....

[Eieio]

Glue joint, not enough connecters, flimsy, embarrasing.....etc.

It would be like showing up to the site with the little pink hammer that comes with your wifes sewing machine.


Sounds like you had your CPVC pipes ran by the guy who does your Pex installs..

[ChrWright]

CPVC... Might as well plumb with bamboo and duct tape.

[afkama]

You can still hang out with me :laugh3:

Pfft - all the democrats scream, We believe in Change - try introducing "change" in those states though and you get the pex over my dead body arguments. In fact while we are on the subject - can someone please name one item that is not supposedly harmful to you in any situation?

Guys it has been in use in Europe for over 30 years & still undergoing a high pressure test without a leak.

As usual this topic has to turn into a political rant.

And as usual there is a lot of disinformation emanating from the Republicans.

I've heard the Europe argument before. The problem is the Europeans typically don't use chlorine to purify their water supplies.

This information comes from a PEX manufacturer who stated for the record that the studies are inadequate:

Polybutylene (PB) is still being used in a many parts of the world for hot and cold potable water applications because those parts of the world don't rely on chlorine for the purification of their water. Countries that don't chlorinate their potable water use ozone, reverse osmosis, carbon or ground well systems. There is a direct scientific connection between chlorinaled water and Polyolefin based materials decreased performance and longevity.

Califomia's water distribution purveyors add cblorine to their potable water. California should consider requiring a level of chorine performance for all approved PEX pipe products. A PEX pipe required chlorine performance level would ensure a realistic protection for performance and longevity of PEX pipe in all California PEX applications.

Califomia has an increasing percentage of residential plumbing systems that are plumbed for potable hot water recirculation applications. This "hot water recirculation" means that there is a periodic or continuous movement of hot water 0n the hot water side ofthe plumbing system so the user doesn't have to wait for hot water when turning on the faucet. Hot water recirculation syslems are considered "Green Building" applications. Virtually all hotels, hospitals or other high tenant use building use hot water recirculation systems.

'The PEX industry has done an inadequate job, of acknowledging and addressing the known weakness of
PEX pipe when exposed to typical U.S. potable water system chemical composition. Our drinking water is chemistry; hydrogen, oxygen, purification (chlorine) additives, etc. When PEX representatives state that PEX has a 35+ year successful history in potable water applications, they are talking about the product history in Europe where little chlorine is used.

The full statement is here:

http://www.calpipes.org/pdf/Lubrizol_Letter.pdf

What the court said was that the manufacturers haven't shown a clear case and that they needed to supply more information before the use of PEX can be mandated by inclusion in the California building Code.

As things stand a local building dept can allow the use of PEX and approx 200 of them do. If it is included in the State bldg code the localities will have no choice but to allow it, which is what the PEX industry is asking for.

I think there are still too many unanswered questions about PEX for it's use to be forced on local building departments. I know the San Francisco building officials aren't convinced and It hasn't been my experience that they are obstructionists.

Hell, I don't think most of them are even Democrats.

[Eieio]

So all those plumbers you guys use, run that crappy ass Pex. They can't run clean CPVC lines or nice copper piping? Ok got it..

This is skill labor.

Neat pvc runs and clean soldering where I am at.. Keep the pex spaghetti web of tangle horrors..

[WarnerConstInc.]

I am not a fan of the mana-blocks and all that mess of pipes.

Straight runs with elbows done nice and neat looks just as good to the eye as a straight copper job.

Cpvc looks like some guy in the trailer park plumbed your house.

[OGStilts]

That's it, it's official, I'm going to hell because I'm going to agree with Afkama and Rory on this one. Well, not so much because I've put the time in to research this myself but I've asked several different plumbers over the past couple years this very question just hoping one of them will finally admit it's a union thing. But all of them have cited material failures as the primary reason for not wanting to use this product. I'll keep using copper until all the kinks are worked out and let those of you brave enough to risk flooding a house from the 2nd floor down fight the good fight. Let me know when it's safe to come out.

[afkama]

That's it, it's official, I'm going to hell because I'm going to agree with Afkama and Rory on this one.

Crap.

Now I'm filled with a sense of unease and self doubt.

[Eieio]

Don't worry when the next wave of lawsuits come from product failures again, they will learn.

P.S. IF I can step on your waterline and shut your water supply off, your product needs some more work.. :laugh3:

[WarnerConstInc.]

You must be one fat mo-fo to squish a pex pipe.

Never heard of a failure around here.

[afkama]

You must be one fat mo-fo to squish a pex pipe.

Never heard of a failure around here.

Wikipedia:

However, the longest warranty offered by any PEX producer is 25 years. There have been some claimed PEX systems failures in the U.S., Canada and Europe resulting in several pending class action law suits. The failures are claimed to be a result of the brass fittings used in the PEX system.

PEX tubing cannot be used in applications exposed to sunlight, as it degrades fairly rapidly. Prior to installation it must be stored away from light, and needs to be shielded from daylight after installation. Leaving it exposed to direct sunlight for as little as 30 days may result in premature failure of the tubing due to embrittlement.



Zurn® Pex Class Action
Informational Website:

This is an informational web site for putative class actions against the maker of Zurn Pex plumbing systems. Zurn's fittings are identified by a Q Pex or a QPex stamped on their side. The homeowners who brought these cases claim that Zurn's brass fittings were incorrectly designed and manufactured. As a result, the homeowners allege that the Zurn Pex fittings fail prematurely – sometimes only months after installation. Substantial water damage may occur when the fittings fail.

Zurn has acknowledged that it has seen an increased number of premature failures and leaks in its QPex fittings but denies that it is liable for those failures. This case is intended to determine who is responsible for the premature failures.

The "Ticking Time Bomb"

The problems with Zurn Pex fittings cracking and leaking are so severe that one of Zurn's own representatives calls the fittings a "ticking time bomb."

[WarnerConstInc.]

I have read that.

Like I said, never heard of a failure around here, yet.
Been used pretty heavily for the last 10 years I would say.

Longer if you count manufactured houses.
I have seen the old qwest pex in those back into the 80's

[bconley]

can someone please name one item that is not supposedly harmful to you in any situation?
H2O, AKA distilled water.
Drinking distilled water leaches the minerals out your system!

[ModernStyle]

Who the hell drinks water out of faucets ?? Damn savages ........ I get my water from the Glaciers of Canada hand bottled by virgins and shipped directly to Walmart. Says so right on the bottle.
I dont care is PEX makes water taste bad or smell bad, if it is headed for my toilet it will smell bad shortly anyways.

[Blue]

CPVC... Might as well plumb with bamboo and duct tape.
Holy sheet that tickled my funny bone like you wouldn't believe.:laugh3:

[Bodger]

Europe.
What do they get, maybe five days of sunshine every three or four years. So no worries about the sun damage.
And chlorine? They don't even bathe regular.
Bad teeth and pale skin.

[ChrWright]

http://www.builderonline.com/legislation/californias-pex-battle-continues.aspx?cid=BLDR100708003

A years-long battle between the PEX plastic plumbing pipe industry and its opponents is continuing in California. A win for the industry was short-lived when a court order on June 17 directed the California Building Standards Commission (CBSC) to cancel its approval of the material for residential construction.

Despite its best efforts, the cross-linked polyethylene (PEX) industry has been unable to have its products added to California’s plumbing code for very long. Opponents of the products, including environmentalists and construction unions, have repeatedly filed lawsuits impeding the industry’s progress.

“Up until August 2009, PEX was not in the California plumbing code, and contractors had to rely on their local jurisdictions to approve use of the product,” says Dale Stroud, business strategy manager for PEX manufacturer Uponor. “We know plumbers and their customers have been looking for a product that’s safe, clean, and environmentally friendly, but there’s been resistance against putting it into the state code.”

[ChrWright]

http://www.supplyht.com/Articles/Breaking_News/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000887176

PEX tubing is back in the California Plumbing Code.


PEX is back in the California Plumbing Code. The California Building Standards Commission has removed the state’s exclusion of PEX tubing from the code.

The action removes the state’s amendment that excluded the use of PEX for water piping systems from the 2007 CPC and amends the 2010 CPC. The regulations include mitigation measures identified in the commission’s Second Revised Draft Environmental Impact Report (SRDEIR) and additional conditions and restrictions on the use of PEX.

The commission’s action allows the use of PEX in all occupancies, including commercial, residential and institutional building construction, rehabilitation and repair under the jurisdiction of the CBSC and responsible agencies in all areas of California. The effective date of the action was Aug. 18 for the 2007 CPC and Jan. 1, 2011, for the 2010 CPC.

more... (http://www.supplyht.com/Articles/Breaking_News/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000887176)

[nEighter]

wasn't this all for the pipe fitters union? they didn't want pex?

[afkama]

wasn't this all for the pipe fitters union? they didn't want pex?

No, it wasn't.

[nEighter]

I guess I will have to go back and read this thread again :rolleyes:

[afkama]

I guess I will have to go back and read this thread again :rolleyes:

:grin:..........