Spray foam Insulation

[Eieio]

I just got through looking at a train wreck post on CT of a spray foam insulation job gone bad..

I have racked my brain after having it installed on one project, having to remove or cut it out to work on a few projects and I just can't think of one benefit of using the stuff..

I just don't see enough of a benefit to using it, any way I look at it.

[JasonW]

You know it was a train wreck for me. I'll avoid it any time I can...

[OGStilts]

Well, if you figure out another way to get an R21 in a 2x4 wall to meet the new energy code, I'd love to hear it.

[Eieio]

Well, if you figure out another way to get an R21 in a 2x4 wall to meet the new energy code, I'd love to hear it.

Don't Frame with 2x4's? 2x6 walls?

[OGStilts]

Man, I just checked out that thread. I can't even believe you would bring that up. That's a hack doing that work. The GC clearly doesn't know what he is doing running the job and the installer probably used the crap you buy on the internet in a box. That's not a professional job. Stay in the dark ages Rory, we will let you know when it's safe to come out.

[Blue]

Wth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Eieio]

I am still waiting for someone to list a benefit of using it??


Far from living in the dark ages, I just don't jump on crap because other guys are using it..

When it has a benefit and has been proving I am on board.. Until then I will remain skeptical and ask guys their opinions..

[WarnerConstInc.]

I can get R-15 with a blown-in blanket system using chopped fiberglass in 2x4 walls.

I agree that post on CT looks like he got the cheapest bid he could and got what he deserved. I just saw pics of your issues Jason, do you know why that happened?

I think it is alright, until you try to fish a wire, repair a broken pipe, move a pipe etc.

I just see it as something that is damn near impossible to work on something later.

[Eieio]

I can get R-15 with a blown-in blanket system using chopped fiberglass in 2x4 walls.

I agree that post on CT looks like he got the cheapest bid he could and got what he deserved. I just saw pics of your issues Jason, do you know why that happened?

I think it is alright, until you try to fish a wire, repair a broken pipe, move a pipe etc.

I just see it as something that is damn near impossible to work on something later.

Those are also some of my biggest concerns, I also had the same experience as Jason.

I have also seen the moisture problem when the humidity rises and dries out it causes havoc on the studs, joists and plywood.

[OGStilts]

Benefits:

Better R-Value and R-Value stays consistent no matter the temperature outside
Seals all gaps, cracks, etc
Doesn't settle
Adds structural rigidity to the walls
Some people say that it improves indoor air quality


Listen I'm not trying to be the worlds biggest advocate for the stuff. I just recently started using it (2 jobs so far). But I don't see how you can have these problems unless it wasn't installed correctly. I used it on my most recent project because I was forced to for R-Value. It's easy to say use 2x6 walls but that is not always practical.

[SLS-Construction]

Rory, there is nothing we can do to change your mind - you know what the pro's are & you have seen the cons if installed incorrectly

The same thing applies to all the other types, and jobs we all do

I also don't feel like typing in a long response as this hotels internet conection sucks & I have about given up dealing with it for the night.

[Eieio]

Sometimes it does.

I am going to try epoxy grout again, a few guys said its better than when I last tried, my first experience was horrible but I think it worth it now if its easier to use..

My tile subs use it and have no problem with it.

Spray foam not so much yet, I will ask back about it in a year or so.. :laugh3:

[JasonW]

I can get R-15 with a blown-in blanket system using chopped fiberglass in 2x4 walls.

I agree that post on CT looks like he got the cheapest bid he could and got what he deserved. I just saw pics of your issues Jason, do you know why that happened?

I think it is alright, until you try to fish a wire, repair a broken pipe, move a pipe etc.

I just see it as something that is damn near impossible to work on something later.

Yes, change of season and that's it! 2 other cases as well. Thank god those weren't my problems. I had enough to deal with on just 1 job.

No way would I suggest this crap to anyone now. I don't care how much high tech garbage you have in your arsenal.

[WarriorWithWood]

I don't know Jason, I think dirty studs and the "backing" may have had something to do with yours (That's only a guess though). What a mess that other job is, can anybody say "Low Bidder"

Here's a link to make this thread easier to follow.

http://www.contractortalk.com/f80/spray-foam-cc-81807/

[Len]

Yeah, that is a totally inexperienced crew install. It's more than buying the equipment and start spraying. It takes skill and experience.

Best advice when looking to try a new installer is visit a jobsite while they are working and see what type of work they do.

If your filling 2x4 walls they make tools like these for planing off extra.
(notice the difference in install too, you can see right away the deference in experience from the pics on CT)

_4sT4-oPmgg

Yr7gud00slc

[JumboJack]

I use a great insulation sub that does an awesome job with spray foam.There are a lot of houses around here that have 4x6 and 4x8 exposed rafters with T&G on top and then nothing else but the shingles.Trying to use regular insulation is something a lot of people that don't know any better will end up doing.They will usually not do anything to get air flow into the the bay and have all kinds of moisture problems...Using spray foam then drywalling makes everything nice and cozy.

[Scott_W]

I think just like everything, it comes down to the competency of the insulation contractor. Just because you had a bad experience, it doesn't mean the product is bad.

How many estimates have you gone to that other nightmare contractors have completed, to quote a do-over? How many crappy drywall jobs have you seen? Does that mean all drywall is bad?

I think it is ALL experience. Don't forget these are chemicals that are mixed, sprayed at a certain temp and pressure. I am sure there are a ton of other variables. An inexperienced installer can make ANYTHING look bad. Even well known companies can have inexperienced installers.

How many contractors have you seen do a TOTALLY crap install job on a perfectly good product you use all the time?

The biggest benefits for me are R20 on 2x4 walls in older homes, and a way better air seal. MOST batt insulation/vapor barrier jobs are inproperly done and not taped properly. Why is that any better? You will still leak incredible amounts of air and negate alot of the R value.

FWIW... the contractor I used praised me for how clean things were when they arrived. He said most people don't realize how important clean surfaces are for it to stick. We vacuumed the whole house out several times.

scott

[Eieio]

The bad experience is minimal in my opinion of the product, there are too many down sides to it..

The fact that plumbing, hvac and electrical are "trapped" in it is the biggest one..

I always keep an open mind but I do Remodeling, the spray foam insulation would hamper this in my opinion..

I could imagine what a change order or error after the fact would be like..

Like I said also I have removed it a few times and the effects on wooden surfaces concerns me..

Imaging a slow plumbing leak caught inside a the cavity that does not show up for months..

[WarnerConstInc.]

Technically, you shouldn't have plumbing in an exterior wall so....

Wiring is the big thing for me, I am sure the make a bit to drill it so you can fish but, now you have a big hole in it.

[OGStilts]

All my electrical gets run in conduit anyway so I don't have any issues with that and like Warner said we aren't allowed to run plumbing in the outside walls.

[WarnerConstInc.]

All my electrical gets run in conduit anyway so I don't have any issues with that and like Warner said we aren't allowed to run plumbing in the outside walls.

That is because the Mafia runs your building departments!!

[naptownCr]

The big concern here is not just a bad installation but remodeling or adding something later.
Plumbing should not be in exterior walls period end of story.
Wires are another story. there is a mamber here whoo makes a raceway specifically for this purpose and would minimize the effects of the next remodel.
Change orders will happen however a pre insulation and drywall walk through to make sure everything is in it's correct place will eliminate 99% of errors and should be done no matter what insulation system is used.
Personally I am for closed cell foam insulation. Properly installed it is a very good product.
And in all reality when did we give a rats a** about the next guy in to reemodel?

[Eieio]

Post from C.T.
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I just got a call from the owner of a house I built about 5 years ago. She accidentally had her termite contract lapse and now the termite company says they will not renew the damage portion of her contract because she has spray foam insulation in the crawl space of her house.

I spoke with the inspector today and he says recent information has come out that is causing them to not renew damage contracts on any homes with spray foam. Which when they get back to inspecting mine will include me.

Their reasoning is that when a leak occurs around a plumbing pipe or condensation happens at a AC register they cannot tell because the foam insulation hides the wood so well. AC registers are my main reason for using spray foam as without it they are always sweating and causing the subfloor to be damp in the hot humid climate I live in.

Has anyone else run into this issue yet? Sounds to me as though there may be a huge problem on our hands in the coming years if all termite companies are taking the same approach.

------------------------------
I just read this on CT. any thoughts?

Has anyone heard any similar?

I hope that if the OP is correct, that this will become the standard.. Might be something to keep an eye on.

[SLS-Construction]

Heard of anything similar - no

Thoughts - yeah, I think they are simply trying to keep their costs down on repairs, as the damages described are not caused by termites, but other issues which aren't even covered.

The science also doesn't back them up - with open cell the water would be running down & out & visible in no time (Hey, that's one of their selling points)

Closed Cell - water remains contained & in the case of ducts would evaporate - a water pipe, would either be shooting out through the nail hole that the HO just did, or wouldn't have happened