to Green or not to green

[naptownCr]

The Paul has asked be to start a "green" section

I know a lot of you are from CT where that term is about as popular as a fart in church.

Can any of you give me a reason why you are not marketing or doing "green" projects?

Flame away

[Mike(VA)]

Maybe you need to distinguish between green, sustainable, and certifiable designations like LEED. There is a difference.

[Silvertree]

Maybe we should argue all 3, or argue everything.

No problem with arguing, just problems with not letting people state their case.

[SLS-Construction]

I don't like the term green - it has been laundered, mutilated & leaves even the so called "experts" confused / arguing over exactly what it means. I prefer using the term common sense building instead.

I don't market it that much as there is hardly any call for it, but with the blog up & running I will be adding more articles about it shortly

[naptownCr]

Ok

lets define green as energy efficient, healthy and sustainable

[naptownCr]

I don't like the term green - it has been laundered, mutilated & leaves even the so called "experts" confused / arguing over exactly what it means. I prefer using the term common sense building instead.

I don't market it that much as there is hardly any call for it, but with the blog up & running I will be adding more articles about it shortly

I can agree with this statement The blog has an article about commons sense green Has anyone read it other than me

[CreteCoater]

Green Shmeen. I get so damn tired of hearing the word green it makes me want to shake a small child.

[Mike(VA)]

That's why I brought up the distinction. Too many of our potential clients have been over-greened to the point where they are way too confused to make intelligent decisions. I am trying to learn the ins and outs of sustainability. To me, that makes more sense since it encompasses the whole waste, re-use, efficiency thing nicely.

I am trying very hard to not do anything with LEED stuff and will probably get pulled kicking and screaming into energy conservation.

[Silvertree]

Remodel Crazy does need a Green section I think.

What kind of Green is up to you. Naptown is a fair guy and even if he thinks your an idiot *sshole I believe you will get to say your piece.
We can all offer up our approach, no one on Remodel Crazy will deny you that, they just won't agree with you. Like anyone here cares all that much about that.

[SLS-Construction]

I can agree with this statement The blog has an article about commons sense green Has anyone read it other than me

Not me - I just wrote it :grin:

Here's another one for you - same author so take it for what it's worth
What is Green Building? (http://blog.sls-construction.com/?p=48)

[Silvertree]

Not me - I just wrote it :grin:

Here's another one for you - same author so take it for what it's worth
What is Green Building? (http://blog.sls-construction.com/?p=48)

Ha,Ha good one Sean, I know your name is on it, so I figured everyone knew.

That's right folks, Sean Sr wrote that:2thumbsup:

[ChrWright]

It's overwhelming to try and wade through even half the "green" related info that hits my mailbox and inbox on a daily basis.

What's been getting the most traction with me have been energy conservation/cost savings related products: higher efficiency appliances, better insulation, etc.---particularly those that qualify for tax credits. It's easy to sell an upgrade to these items since you can show a real return on the investment.

I have a few that ask for what you might call "green" materials--recycled, renewable, environmentally friendly, etc. These days, there are very few who put their money where their conscience is when it involves paying more to "go green".

I sat in on a very good conference at the Coverings trade show this year that was basically a survey on what green really means. Not the most riveting material to listen to, but I'm glad to have gotten the education.

I've been thinking about adding a GREEN section to my bid proposals that show prospects the portions of their projects that we're giving them benefits in that regard. Anyone else doing this?

My HVAC guy is very good at upselling to high SEER rating heat pumps by giving exact tax credit, energy savings, and power company incentives for doing so.

I've been pricing windows this week for a few projects, and my salesman at the lumber yard I order through has been giving me a break down of which ones qualify for tax credits.

Has anyone made any efforts in the area of recycling? I've seen shows on commercial demo projects where they recycle just about everything--including the drywall. I've yet to hear of anyone in the residential world making a significant effort in that regard--besides donating old fixtures/cabinets/etc to the local habitat for humanity.

There's a ton of stuff that we pitch because frankly I don't have the time or space to sort through it.

[WarnerConstInc.]

How about something for different tips, tricks and techniques for energy efficiency in existing homes.

The whole, yard on my roof, solar panels, wind turbine thing is not obtainable to anyone around here.

I am big on salvaging and re-using, refurbishing, re-purposing different materials.

How about being 'green' by living in an old house, not building new. Those are kind of the way people feel here.

I have 2 toilets from the 30's, kind of thirsty at 7 gallons a flush but, there is a rule around the house:

If it's yellow, let it mellow; if it's brown, flush it down. ( Sorry have a youngster, worked good for her)


Damn you Chris and your faster typing skills.

Thanks Chris!!:pimp2:

[Silvertree]

I sell cabinets that come wrapped in cardboard. Average kitchen its a stack 4 feet high. Recycling guy in Mpls would only take about a fourth so I drove around the block putting small piles of cardboard in different addresses.

Cardboard worth .50 cents, time and gas $38.40. Glad to do my part:2thumbsup:

[ChrWright]

If it's yellow, let it be; if it's brown, flush it down. ( Sorry have a youngster, worked good for her)[/I]

I thought it was:

If it's yellow, let it mellow.... :laugh3:

[WarnerConstInc.]

I thought it was:

If it's yellow, let it mellow.... :laugh3:

Yeah that might be it!!:grin:

[ChrWright]

I sell cabinets that come wrapped in cardboard. Average kitchen its a stack 4 feet high. Recycling guy in Mpls would only take about a fourth so I drove around the block putting small piles of cardboard in different addresses.

Cardboard worth .50 cents, time and gas $38.40. Glad to do my part:2thumbsup:

That's a HUGE one for sure. We just un-boxed a kitchen this week and besides using some of the cardboard for floor protection, the rest went to the bottom of the dumpster.

I could definitely do better at this, with some clear cut examples of what other guys have done. I do think a lot of the info has reached a critical mass with the general public and it would make a difference to some if you sold that as one more benefit to choosing you.

[Silvertree]

We have a way to go with this issue, for many it's all or nothing and for many it's do nothing.

I think we will have an active topic area for this subject.
Sean writes about it, Naptown is knowledgeable, I am looking forward to sharing opinions on this. It's the working contractors who will come up with some good practices.

[WarnerConstInc.]

I usually only need a dumster on a roofing job or on a big tear out and redo.

I try to seperate wood and burnables. ( I have a nice burn pile at my grandma's, back in the hollar )

I hate doing it now but, I still seperate metals.

You would be amazed how much trash you can get rid of in your curb service can.

Both neighbors, south and west have mini bins, I cant get one because the lines are too low over both drives.

I have always been clever with trash.

There is also a big free recycle place just a few blocks from home as well. Carboard and such.

[Silvertree]

I have always been clever with trash

Yeah, I heard that about you:grin:

[Bodger]

I think "green" is fine as long as it's actually something that creates and sustains more energy effeiciency and lessens pollution.

Too many entities out there right now are marketing their products as green and they don't really meet the definition.

In my area of the country, all you have to do is mention the word green and people are ready to fall over themselves to go that direction. And there have been plenty of companies ready and willing to jump on that opportunity.

I think it's good as long as it's real.

[Ed The Roofer]

I dump all of my torn off asphalt shingles at a transfer station that recycles the shingles for the asphalt.

I never considered marketing it as some sort of a Green effort, but i guess that I could factually make that proclamation.

The reality is, that it is the closest facility to dump at and is comparable to the regular dump site land-fill and about a total of at least one hours less driving time, so I am conservng fuel too by doing this, which I ust realized as I am typing.

Maybe I should keep writing and see how else I am saving the world.

NOT.....

Ed

[naptownCr]

I sell cabinets that come wrapped in cardboard. Average kitchen its a stack 4 feet high. Recycling guy in Mpls would only take about a fourth so I drove around the block putting small piles of cardboard in different addresses.

Cardboard worth .50 cents, time and gas $38.40. Glad to do my part:2thumbsup:

This is a function of the municipality setting limits. Call the powers that be and see if they can get the policy changed or if it's just the recycling guy not doing his job. Sometimes and envelope with a couple bucks in it taped to the top of the pile gan get it done. I used to be able to get entire kitchen demo's hauled for 25 bucks. just waited for when the trash guys were there. Sometimes they would back the truck up and load it too.
That's a HUGE one for sure. We just un-boxed a kitchen this week and besides using some of the cardboard for floor protection, the rest went to the bottom of the dumpster.

I could definitely do better at this, with some clear cut examples of what other guys have done. I do think a lot of the info has reached a critical mass with the general public and it would make a difference to some if you sold that as one more benefit to choosing you.

Again another benefit to you

I usually only need a dumster on a roofing job or on a big tear out and redo.

I try to seperate wood and burnables. ( I have a nice burn pile at my grandma's, back in the hollar )

I hate doing it now but, I still seperate metals.

You would be amazed how much trash you can get rid of in your curb service can.

Both neighbors, south and west have mini bins, I cant get one because the lines are too low over both drives.

I have always been clever with trash.

There is also a big free recycle place just a few blocks from home as well. Carboard and such.

Do they take anything else?

I think "green" is fine as long as it's actually something that creates and sustains more energy effeiciency and lessens pollution.

Too many entities out there right now are marketing their products as green and they don't really meet the definition.
Agreed

In my area of the country, all you have to do is mention the word green and people are ready to fall over themselves to go that direction. And there have been plenty of companies ready and willing to jump on that opportunity.
[COLOR="green"]And why ore you not taking advantage of this[/COLOR

I think it's good as long as it's real.

I dump all of my torn off asphalt shingles at a transfer station that recycles the shingles for the asphalt.

I never considered marketing it as some sort of a Green effort, but i guess that I could factually make that proclamation.

The reality is, that it is the closest facility to dump at and is comparable to the regular dump site land-fill and about a total of at least one hours less driving time, so I am conservng fuel too by doing this, which I ust realized as I am typing.

Maybe I should keep writing and see how else I am saving the world.

NOT.....

Ed

All but the last word there is true and good ideas

[ChrWright]

I was searching for a central repository of current incentive programs and found this cool website. It gives both federal and state initiatives:

http://www.dsireusa.org/

For our Canadian friends:
http://www.oee.nrcan.gc.ca/corporate/incentives.cfm

[Bodger]

And why are you not taking advantage of this?

I think the key phrase is "taking advantage". In the case of several so called green products I have been pitched, that's exactly what some purveyors are trying to do.

The one case that leaps to mind was when an archy had miscalculated the placement of a free standing fireplace and the engineering would not allow for the vent to go where he wanted it. Enter the " green" fireplace that used ethanol and didn't require any venting.

I was against it, and the client reserached just how green an ethanol fireplace actually is. I don't have the numbers she came up with, but she researched and found that the amount of fossil fuel involved in producing ethanol made the fireplace not nearly as green as the vendor claimed.

I'm a builder. Not a "green" builder. And I don't see many general contractors marketing strictly from that angle either.

The firms I see marketing green out here are mostly vendors, not contractors. And the greenness of their products is often more name than function in my opinion.

I did see a profile of a house in Santa Monica that had been built totally green on every thing, including the landscaping.

Making it totally "green" added some 60% to the average cost of custom building.

I'm not against the concept, but I'm not going to go tooling up to chase "green" when I'm not getting projects of any color at all right not.

I don't throw trash in the alleyways of South Central LA like these jacklegs are doing. I guess that's as green as I get for now.

[SLS-Construction]

Ah - the consumer speaks on this --- obviously they didn't restrict their polling to Seatle & other "green cities", like most green advocates polling companies do

http://www.housingzone.com/probuilder/article/ca6678553.html


Consumers Say Energy Efficiency is Most Important Green Benefit

Study shows gap between consumer priorities and LEED-H criteria

News Release
August 19, 2009
HousingZone

According to the results of a recent Synovate study, American homeowners are more concerned with energy efficiency and cost-saving measures when building a green home than with any other factor. FreeGreen, the world's leading house- plan provider, commissioned the independent study, focused on consumer perception of how to define green building.

The study reveals a gap between what consumers believe are the most significant green elements and the criteria of Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design for Homes (LEED-H).

"Green home building standards such as LEED-H and the NAHB green building program are useful guidelines for builders and architects," says FreeGreen CEO David Wax. "This survey indicates that it could be very useful for LEED-H and NAHB to incorporate consumer feedback into their standards to get the best of both worlds, get experts to set the standard in green innovation, and use consumer input to drive the marketing efforts leading to greater adoption.

"The residential market is an entirely different animal from the commercial with everyday consumers driving demand as opposed to developers and governments," Wax continues. "FreeGreen was founded as a resource focused entirely on the residential consumer in helping them choose a floor plan and environmentally friendly materials to build a green home in language they understand and with an emphasis on energy efficiency."


Highlights from the Study

Thinking with their wallets. Not surprisingly given the enduring economic crisis, an overwhelming majority (25 percent higher than the next most popular choice) chose energy efficiency, the most obvious money-saver of the options.
Education begets conservation. According to the study, those with higher levels of education place more importance on conserving natural resources. Respondents with post-graduate degrees were twice as likely to consider natural-resource efficiency the single most important factor in determining if their home is green.
Earthquakes, fires, traffic and natural-resource efficiency. Those surveyed in the western states were nearly 40 percent more likely to be concerned about natural-resource efficiency than their eastern counterparts. This statistic could be linked to the present drought in California, one of the most serious in recorded history.
Healthy materials not a priority. Across the board, in every demographic (including families with children), healthy materials ranked remarkably low (from 3 percent to 5 percent), indicating that consumers consider it marginally important.
The baby boomers have spoken. By far, the most statistically significant group in the survey with the greatest purchasing power answered the survey in no uncertain terms by choosing energy efficiency as their top priority with regard to greening their homes. Nearly one of every two boomers chose with their wallet, opting to save on their utility bills versus the alternatives.

[naptownCr]

I was searching for a central repository of current incentive programs and found this cool website. It gives both federal and state initiatives:

http://www.dsireusa.org/

For our Canadian friends:
http://www.oee.nrcan.gc.ca/corporate/incentives.cfm

Dsireusa.org is a very good site and one i used almost daily until I memorized the local incentives.
For those that don't know it is a site that lists all the federal and state incentives for using renewables. Solar wind geothermal biomass etc.

And why are you not taking advantage of this?

I think the key phrase is "taking advantage". In the case of several so called green products I have been pitched, that's exactly what some purveyors are trying to do.

The one case that leaps to mind was when an archy had miscalculated the placement of a free standing fireplace and the engineering would not allow for the vent to go where he wanted it. Enter the " green" fireplace that used ethanol and didn't require any venting.

I was against it, and the client reserached just how green an ethanol fireplace actually is. I don't have the numbers she came up with, but she researched and found that the amount of fossil fuel involved in producing ethanol made the fireplace not nearly as green as the vendor claimed.

I'm a builder. Not a "green" builder. And I don't see many general contractors marketing strictly from that angle either.

The firms I see marketing green out here are mostly vendors, not contractors. And the greenness of their products is often more name than function in my opinion.

I did see a profile of a house in Santa Monica that had been built totally green on every thing, including the landscaping.

Making it totally "green" added some 60% to the average cost of custom building.

I'm not against the concept, but I'm not going to go tooling up to chase "green" when I'm not getting projects of any color at all right not.

I don't throw trash in the alleyways of South Central LA like these jacklegs are doing. I guess that's as green as I get for now.

I don't mean taking advantage in terms of screwing the client or driving the costs through the roof. By taking advantage I mean to use best practices
AND LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT YOU DO!

[naptownCr]

I usually only need a dumster on a roofing job or on a big tear out and redo.

I try to seperate wood and burnables. ( I have a nice burn pile at my grandma's, back in the hollar )I hate doing it now but, I still seperate metals.

You would be amazed how much trash you can get rid of in your curb service can.

Both neighbors, south and west have mini bins, I cant get one because the lines are too low over both drives.

I have always been clever with trash.

There is also a big free recycle place just a few blocks from home as well. Carboard and such.


Burning it is the worst thing you can do

To see how much co2 is released by burning go here
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/coefficients.html

Think of that as sequestered co2

This is not even to mention any other nasties that could be released such as lead from old siding or whatever particulates etc.
Take it to the landfill it is better than burning. particularly if it is an open air burn and you aare not even using the heat for something other than recreation or toasting marshmallows ( not reccomended if painted stuff or plywood or particle board is included in the burn)

[Silvertree]

We are working on getting a section open for "Green"
I called it "Substainable Practices" unless you guys have a better name

[Eieio]

We are working on getting a section open for "Green"
I called it "Substainable Practices" unless you guys have a better name

I am not really sure what I am doing but I passed my Leed test section?

[naptownCr]

We are working on getting a section open for "Green"
I called it "Substainable Practices" unless you guys have a better name

That sounds good and avoids the dreaded green word

I am not really sure what I am doing but I passed my Leed test section?

So you are LEED certified?

[Eieio]

That sounds good and avoids the dreaded green word



So you are LEED certified?

I looked into taking the course. It is now being revamped if I understand correctly and is not available right now until the new rules/changes take place??

This is what my office told me when they called

So the answer is no

[naptownCr]

I looked into taking the course. It is now being revamped if I understand correctly and is not available right now until the new rules/changes take place??

This is what my office told me when they called

So the answer is no

Gonna be a lot harder now than 3 months ago

[WarnerConstInc.]

I will always have a burn pile.

You should see all the brush we burn every year. What am I going to do with a butt ton of brush?

I try to burn some of my wood scraps in my wood stove in the garage.

It's about 1400 sq/ft and I can get it up to about 55 when it is 10 outside.

The recycle place takes anything that can be recycled.

[Bodger]

Dsireusa.org is a very good site and one i used almost daily until I memorized the local incentives.
For those that don't know it is a site that lists all the federal and state incentives for using renewables. Solar wind geothermal biomass etc.



I don't mean taking advantage in terms of screwing the client or driving the costs through the roof. By taking advantage I mean to use best practices
AND LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT YOU DO!

I know you didn't mean that. My point was that many of the vendors I have encountered that are hawking green products and methods aren't necessarily what they say they are. I am cautious about what I recommend.

So far, tankless water heaters, Icynene insulation, and radiant heat have been the things I have stressed as energy efficient and I have had good responses and results with all.
That seems in keeping with the article that Sean posted.

[Mike(VA)]

I like the 'Sustainable Practices' moniker. Getting rid of the 'green' word will be great. There needs to be some effort to explain why 'green' isn't always 'green'. Clients who read this material here need educating about what is real life and trying to wean them from hype marketing benefits all of us.

Are there any standards as to what 'sustainable' actually means? I would hate to see that term go the way of 'green'. If not, maybe we could start to develop a good definition of sustainable and something like a 'good management practices' guidelines for contractors.

[naptownCr]

I will always have a burn pile.

You should see all the brush we burn every year. What am I going to do with a butt ton of brush?

I try to burn some of my wood scraps in my wood stove in the garage.

It's about 1400 sq/ft and I can get it up to about 55 when it is 10 outside.

The recycle place takes anything that can be recycled.

If they do wood that's great! burning in the garage is at least contributing on some level. Burning plywood and painted stuff is too risky in MHO

I know you didn't mean that. My point was that many of the vendors I have encountered that are hawking green products and methods aren't necessarily what they say they are. I am cautious about what I recommend.

So far, tankless water heaters, Icynene insulation, and radiant heat have been the things I have stressed as energy efficient and I have had good responses and results with all.
That seems in keeping with the article that Sean posted.

This is the exact spirit I was looking for not over the top

I like the 'Sustainable Practices' moniker. Getting rid of the 'green' word will be great. There needs to be some effort to explain why 'green' isn't always 'green'. Clients who read this material here need educating about what is real life and trying to wean them from hype marketing benefits all of us.

Are there any standards as to what 'sustainable' actually means? I would hate to see that term go the way of 'green'. If not, maybe we could start to develop a good definition of sustainable and something like a 'good management practices' guidelines for contractors.

This is perfect and we will expand on that in the future

[naptownCr]

I like the 'Sustainable Practices' moniker. Getting rid of the 'green' word will be great. There needs to be some effort to explain why 'green' isn't always 'green'. Clients who read this material here need educating about what is real life and trying to wean them from hype marketing benefits all of us.

Are there any standards as to what 'sustainable' actually means? I would hate to see that term go the way of 'green'. If not, maybe we could start to develop a good definition of sustainable and something like a 'good management practices' guidelines for contractors.

The title will have green in it for the forseeable future but sustainable will be the main theme

[Eieio]

The title will have green in it for the forseeable future but sustainable will be the main theme


Home owners have latched on to the term green and it is not going away any time soon.

It is a necessary evil but you will have to include the term green

[naptownCr]

I know you didn't mean that. My point was that many of the vendors I have encountered that are hawking green products and methods aren't necessarily what they say they are. I am cautious about what I recommend.

So far, tankless water heaters, Icynene insulation, and radiant heat have been the things I have stressed as energy efficient and I have had good responses and results with all.
That seems in keeping with the article that Sean posted.

I now sell solar energy. However conservation is a much shorter payback.
Energy Conservation is my personal mantra. we can talk about conservation vs generation ( Solar wind etc.) I place geothermal in the conservation category unless you live in Yellowstone or Iceland.

[SLS-Construction]

I know you didn't mean that. My point was that many of the vendors I have encountered that are hawking green products and methods aren't necessarily what they say they are. I am cautious about what I recommend.

So far, tankless water heaters, Icynene insulation, and radiant heat have been the things I have stressed as energy efficient and I have had good responses and results with all.
That seems in keeping with the article that Sean posted.

Please tell me that is for the walls only - it's not approved for closed attics, which is a another fight all into itself

Radiant heat in LA - does it ever really get used? I remember looking at it while I was in Phoenix and it didn't appear to be feasible - to bad we couldn't run cool water through it to cool the places off...

[ChrWright]

Anyone done a residential geothermal project?

I had a client we did a large addition for look into it as part of our renovation. He had the desire, the land, and the cash to make it happen but at the end of the day he upgraded his existing and our new system to a hybrid of a high SEER Heat pump with backup electrical heat. Over the long term, factoring in utility incentives, the hybrid system will save him more money.

He was actually profiled here in Indy last year for being one of the first companies to install a wind turbine to supply power to his business. The cost was around $40,000 I think, with a yearly savings of $10,000 on his utilities.

http://www.entegritywind.com/pdfs/may-13.pdf

[naptownCr]

Please tell me that is for the walls only - it's not approved for closed attics, which is a another fight all into itself

We can use it here for unventilated cathedral ceilings, attics etc.
Radiant heat in LA - does it ever really get used? I remember looking at it while I was in Phoenix and it didn't appear to be feasible - to bad we couldn't run cool water through it to cool the places off...
Radiant is a perfect fit for solar due to the lower operating temps does it get used? I have no idea


Anyone done a residential geothermal project?

I had a client we did a large addition for look into it as part of our renovation. He had the desire, the land, and the cash to make it happen but at the end of the day he upgraded his existing and our new system to a hybrid of a high SEER Heat pump with backup electrical heat. Over the long term, factoring in utility incentives, the hybrid system will save him more money.

What was the length of the term. Geothermal has a longer payback due to higher initial costs. Indy because of the very cold if I am correct about this not a good candidate for air to air heat pumps remember they lose efficiency
( Even the High SEER ones) as the temp drops. A hybird or smart system is better using another fuel other than resistance electric heat in thaqt it will calculate the lowest cost fuel and switch to that fuel EG propane or oil when the efficiency drops below a set point.
He was actually profiled here in Indy last year for being one of the first companies to install a wind turbine to supply power to his business. The cost was around $40,000 I think, with a yearly savings of $10,000 on his utilities.

The cost return on this is too great. If the electricity rate is 15 cents a KWH
divide 10000 by that and the wind generator would have to produce 66666 KWH a year. For solar in maryland the average year round output on a PV system is KW of the arrrayx3.2x365 so a 10Kw array would produce approx 33.2 kwh per day average. multiply by 365 and you get an annual production of 21118 KHW per year. x .15 = $1817 per year in savings or value of the power. BTW that 10KW array will cost between 70 and 100 K

I would have to look into the wind performance of the area which is available and the size of the turbine to make a determination whether this is true or a good story
http://www.entegritywind.com/pdfs/may-13.pdf

Will look at link and report back

[naptownCr]

Cost on the turbine above was 200k less 30k in federal credits.

This is probably a 60 or 80KHW generator which makes sense with the savings.

[Bodger]

Please tell me that is for the walls only - it's not approved for closed attics, which is a another fight all into itself

Radiant heat in LA - does it ever really get used? I remember looking at it while I was in Phoenix and it didn't appear to be feasible - to bad we couldn't run cool water through it to cool the places off...

I have used it primarily in walls, never in an attic ot anywhere else unless it is covered with gyp.

However, I had an application last year where I had a second floor ceiling with no crawlspace or attic. Just 2 x 12 ceiling joists.
5/8" plywood sub-roof over the joists, Carlisle membrane, and standing seam Galvalume metal roof with metal fascia as well.

Venting the joist bays was an issue. It would not have been cost effective to cut slots and weld mesh screen into the Galvalume fascia to allow for ventilation in each bay. It was not recommended that fiberglass insulation be used in unventilated bays, due to the daily variance in temperature and the moisture this would no doubt create in the joist bays.

Blown-in Icynene was the recommended product to use in lieu of venting each bay. I had sign-offs galore, archy, insulation installer, city inspector, etc.

I would have preferred to vent the bays. What say all of you?

[naptownCr]

My understanding is no ventilation is needed this is a closed cell product and does not absorb moisture and creates its own vapor barrier.

[Bodger]

Please tell me that is for the walls only - it's not approved for closed attics, which is a another fight all into itself

Radiant heat in LA - does it ever really get used? I remember looking at it while I was in Phoenix and it didn't appear to be feasible - to bad we couldn't run cool water through it to cool the places off...

The last house I used it in had no space, literally none, for any type of HVAC ducts. Steel moment frames, tube steel, TJI, etc. The archy couldn't even vent his damned fireplace the way he had planned.

Heat is required, obviously, so it was the only way to go. And yes, the clients do use it sparingly. Solar augmented.

I didn't care for the set-up, no air return, no A/C.
Just radiant heat floors throughout. Warmboard (a product I will NEVER use again) and the Pex tubing.

It would be great if cool water could flow as well. In LA, probablyuse cool more than warm on an average basis.

[SLS-Construction]

I have used it primarily in walls, never in an attic ot anywhere else unless it is covered with gyp.

However, I had an application last year where I had a second floor ceiling with no crawlspace or attic. Just 2 x 12 ceiling joists.
5/8" plywood sub-roof over the joists, Carlisle membrane, and standing seam Galvalume metal roof with metal fascia as well.

Venting the joist bays was an issue. It would not have been cost effective to cut slots and weld mesh screen into the Galvalume fascia to allow for ventilation in each bay. It was not recommended that fiberglass insulation be used in unventilated bays, due to the daily variance in temperature and the moisture this would no doubt create in the joist bays.

Blown-in Icynene was the recommended product to use in lieu of venting each bay. I had sign-offs galore, archy, insulation installer, city inspector, etc.

I would have preferred to vent the bays. What say all of you?


My understanding is no ventilation is needed this is a closed cell product and does not absorb moisture and creates its own vapor barrier.

NaptownCr - Correct, but last I checked Icenyne only sells open cell foam

Bodger - glad you got the sign offs (not for the non venting part, but the product that was used)

Icenyne is on my :censored: list for what I perceive as shady tactics in this area. They have a 5 or so item brochure that they released for why you should always use their product & why it is superior to Closed Cell. They do mention that it is not approved for this application in places that understand and enforce codes without changes being made (which ironically knock out at least one of their main selling points - the how will I know I have a leak?)

My favorite one in there - by code all buildings must meet X code for stability or racking, so even though CC foam will help you exceed said code, you should not use it as you are obviously using it to subsidize your weaker framing & Icenyne is the only way to go which doesn't increase this resistance / strength issue - which leads to a... say what

The one thing I would be interested in seeing is a study dealing with CC & OC foams in a seismic event. As mentioned above it adds strength and prevents racking - so what happens when the engineers want the house to flex some?

[ChrWright]

Cost on the turbine above was 200k less 30k in federal credits.

This is probably a 60 or 80KHW generator which makes sense with the savings.

Does sound more reasonable. Not sure why I had the 40k figure in my head.

[ChrWright]

What was the length of the term. Geothermal has a longer payback due to higher initial costs. Indy because of the very cold if I am correct about this not a good candidate for air to air heat pumps remember they lose efficiency. ( Even the High SEER ones) as the temp drops. A hybrid or smart system is better using another fuel other than resistance electric heat in thaqt it will calculate the lowest cost fuel and switch to that fuel EG propane or oil when the efficiency drops below a set point.

Air source heat pumps work fairly well here down to around 30 deg or so. We install outside stats that switch to back up down below that. Typically we are backing up with electric heat because the cost per Kwh here is fairly low.

It was an even better deal until recently--at least in Indianapolis. IPL had a rebate program for 14 SEER or higher heat pumps of a few cents/Kwh. I believe that program ended in June.

[WarnerConstInc.]

I have a friend that does the loop hook ups for Geothermal.

Too bad everyone that has it, has a big generator to make sure it will still run.

I have talked to a few clients that have Geo, man their electric bills seemed high to me.

It costs me about 175 bucks a month to heat my 1800 sq/ft old farm house with nat. gas.

I know they were paying way more than that for the Geo. The house was about 300 sq/ft bigger but, all new windows and insulation.

Seems like a waste to me.

[WarnerConstInc.]

Heat pumps up here are kind of a joke. Way to big of an electric bill.

I wouldn't use a heat pump north of KY.

[naptownCr]

NaptownCr - Correct, but last I checked Icenyne only sells open cell foam

thanks for the correction

Bodger - glad you got the sign offs (not for the non venting part, but the product that was used)

Icenyne is on my :censored: list for what I perceive as shady tactics in this area. They have a 5 or so item brochure that they released for why you should always use their product & why it is superior to Closed Cell. They do mention that it is not approved for this application in places that understand and enforce codes without changes being made (which ironically knock out at least one of their main selling points - the how will I know I have a leak?)

My favorite one in there - by code all buildings must meet X code for stability or racking, so even though CC foam will help you exceed said code, you should not use it as you are obviously using it to subsidize your weaker framing & Icenyne is the only way to go which doesn't increase this resistance / strength issue - which leads to a... say what

The one thing I would be interested in seeing is a study dealing with CC & OC foams in a seismic event. As mentioned above it adds strength and prevents racking - so what happens when the engineers want the house to flex some?

I live and work in a non seismic zone for all intents and purposes therefore lack direct knoweldge in this area of the code. (There I admited I don't know something) Those of you who are on the left coast and have to deal with this daily please chime in. Please if you will let us know that that is the case as not all of us have this issue.
Does sound more reasonable. Not sure why I had the 40k figure in my head.

Senior moment? Just kidding

Air source heat pumps work fairly well here down to around 30 deg or so. We install outside stats that switch to back up down below that. Typically we are backing up with electric heat because the cost per Kwh here is fairly low.

It was an even better deal until recently--at least in Indianapolis. IPL had a rebate program for 14 SEER or higher heat pumps of a few cents/Kwh. I believe that program ended in June.

A 14 SEER is low by current standards. My personal recommendation is a 19 which are available. You are right about the below 30 degrees part efficiency drops dramatically below that. Worse if the himidity is high and the unit has to defrost more often or worse is on timed defrost as opposed to demand defrost.

[naptownCr]

I have a friend that does the loop hook ups for Geothermal.

Too bad everyone that has it, has a big generator to make sure it will still run.

I have talked to a few clients that have Geo, man their electric bills seemed high to me.

It costs me about 175 bucks a month to heat my 1800 sq/ft old farm house with nat. gas.

I know they were paying way more than that for the Geo. The house was about 300 sq/ft bigger but, all new windows and insulation.

Seems like a waste to me.

Natural gas has for the past year been VEEERY cheap about 1/2 the cost of three years ago. I do not expect this to last for long. Since the passage of the energy bill expect to see all energy prices to rise. I was at a house and I know I AM REPEATING THIS but this was a 6500 sf house. it was built green over the top. This is an all electric house using geothermal for heating electric for eveerything else. There was no solar component. Electricity costs there are about 11 cents a KWH What do you think his average monthy electric bill is? Take a guess. The house is located in alexandria VA where we have about a 2 month per year where we are not either cooling or heating.

[Bodger]

I live and work in a non seismic zone for all intents and purposes therefore lack direct knoweldge in this area of the code. (There I admited I don't know something) Those of you who are on the left coast and have to deal with this daily please chime in. Please if you will let us know that that is the case as not all of us have this issue.

I have not seen anything on an engineering plan that referenced any deflection values in relation to foam insulating. Probably because that has already been addressed by values assigned to the framing on the jobs I've done, so it's a non-issue at that point. Good thing to know though.

Flexing though, is a good question. I do believe that Icynene would split and pull away from whatever it's adhered to.

Leaks are also a concern, as to finding them when they occur and Icynene is beneath in the joists.

I had some Tuff-Tex waterproofing get scuffed on a set of roof deck stairs that had living space below. This caused a leak, couldn't find the hole from above, and the Icynene had been blown into the bottoms of the stair carriages, under the treads and risers. The water ran all around that Icynene before it found a place to drip. We had to pull out six risers worth of blown insul to find out where the actual hole was.

I had the archy from hell on that job.

[Mike(VA)]

Hey, Nap, that pea-green is hard to read. It is 'green' though. :2thumbsup:

[Century Man]

I lost a bath remodel because the other guy had some "green" ideas they liked. I've already asked what they liked about the "green" ideas so I can be armed in the future. How "green" can you get in a 5x7 bath?

[Silvertree]

Ned,
Dual flush water saver toilet.
Water saver faucets.
Recyled products tops or mention your stone top is locally made (if true)
Low VOC paint
Fan
Low voltage lights, LED if you can make that work.
Marmoleum floor
and a few other things, so Ned, this may be a good place to learn.

[Century Man]

I'm all about learning. It also will make for a blog article. I'll report back with the information I get from the homeowner.

[Bodger]

Ned,
Dual flush water saver toilet.
Water saver faucets.
Recyled products tops or mention your stone top is locally made (if true)
Low VOC paint
Fan
Low voltage lights, LED if you can make that work.
Marmoleum floor
and a few other things, so Ned, this may be a good place to learn.

Armed with a list like that, I could see how you could easily set yourself apart from other contractors and add value to your service. It hits both hot buttons: Money savings and conservation of the environment.

Good thing to know.