Green vs Best practices

[Michael Anschel]

It is critical for those interested in venturing in on the Green debate to understand the difference between Green building and the assortment of best practices being described in some of the threads.

I believe that it is also important to be careful about the kinds of information and suggestions that are made in regards to the fields of Green building, building science, building biology, and other related areas of focus. Most of these are fairly well defined and have been operating for a healthy number of years. I urge those of you who are interested in learning more to look to the commercial world where most of this debate has already taken place and use that information to allow this conversation to move forward rather than re-hash old subjects.

The easiest way to understand the difference between Green building and best practices is to think of Green building as an umbrella that encompasses all of the best practices of all the components of the building process including the process itself. Just as an umbrella has many panels and ribs that come together in an equal and balanced fashion, so to is Green building the assemblage of multiple disciplines and considerations to create a balanced structure. Each single task contained in the larger context may be more or less green depending on the boundary conditions, but out of context they are simple 'best practices'. It is only when you bring them together that you can create something Green.

Check out: CASBEE, ATHENA, Green Globes, MN GreenStar, USGBC, EarthCraft, Christopher Alexander, Lester Brown, Joe Lstiburek

[Eieio]

I think the biggest problem is the lack of packaged information that explains what's what for the green industry.

The government sets up one suggestion, the leed authorities have another, the manufactures have their own.

It is a bit confusion for all the parties involved trying to weed through what is fact or fiction.

I am also afraid it will take years to see what works and what is a fad

[Silvertree]

Michael's point is let's move on from describing what's Green and understand that all of our skill working together is how we arrive at Green.

In other words, Goe Thermal saves energy, but its not necessarily Green of itself, same could be said of tankless water heaters, solar, wind low VOC paints and so on.

As far as Green being confusing, its not, what's confusing is how Green is perceived.

Remodel Crazy will separate Green, best practices into different topics. We need to understand that not only products but design and functions determine how well we are doing as sustainable builders.

Don't let me get all smart on this, but Michael Anschel is expert at proving his point, even when questioned by worthy opponents. I don't agree with Michael on what I consider key approaches and haven't worn him down yet, but I'm not even close to giving up.

In conclusion, this is a subject that will only get more important as time goes on. Get in on the discussion now, because it's fly out the door time to know what's going on.

More on this later.

[Eieio]

I agree with both you and Michael but the fact remains if your selling it you have to know what it is your selling.

Green insurance is now being sold to companies that are focusing on this area of business.

A few contractors have been sued for not meeting Green/Leed standards or what ever you base the criteria on.

How do you meet these standards if they are not clearly defined. I have been burnt enough times to know when I need to be prepared for the torch to come my way.

I think the battle of building energy efficiently will continue to grow, but I don't want to be a casualty of the war either, been there done that.

[naptownCr]

We need to define green
Here's my definition

Saves energy
uses local materials
uses sustainable materials ( let's work on a difinition of sustainable)
creates a healthy interior envoronment

Although this is a short list maybe, baby steps are better than giant steps.
I personally would rather see 10,000 homes do some sort of green as defined above than 100 homes go full blown green. The advantage is incremental and easier to swallow to the average home owner. The benefits to the environment can be astounding.

[Silvertree]

We agree on that, Michael probably doesn't.
He'll post and tell us why I bet.

[Bender]

I am not a big believer in 'green', mostly for the reasons posted. I'm looking forward to what Mike has to say. I think there is a lot to learn.

Oh, and welcome Michael:)

[naptownCr]

Welcome Michael

I saw you at the Remodelers show in Baltimore last fall
I was one of the ones wearing a red shirt.
If I remember my former boss introduced you

[Bodger]

I am considering obtaining my LEED certifications and marketing my company as a remodeling entity that can "green" exisiting structures. My area of the country is receptive to the concept.

But as stated in this thread by others, I'm having some difficulty deciphering what is green and what is strictly energy conservation, and how to present so-called green products accurately.

Reference the ethanol fireplace that was touted as green by an architect on one of my projects. The client did some research of her own, and came to the conclusion that it wasn't so green. I don't want to find myself in the same position as that archy.

[SLS-Construction]

First off Michael - welcome to RC & while I do agree with a lot of the green building principles, I have a few bones to pick with you here

... Green building, building science, building biology... Most of these are fairly well defined and have been operating for a healthy number of years

Do you really believe that? Builders are getting sued because they can't figure out how to build / get to some of the standards, or make it so that people don't get sick when they go to work. How much money is wasted putting in something that won't last (but hey it's recycled) just to get a few more points, or systems that fight against each other just to be green?

Next there are so many fights between the so-called experts on just what the meaning of green is, it is unbelievable. LEED vs NAHB vs EnergyStar vs Healthy House vs EarthCraft vs the guy that believes that healthy & durable are not even part of it vs...

That is just the organizations & supposed experts - do we really want to get into all the fights on insulation vs venting vs....

I urge those of you who are interested in learning more to look to the commercial world where most of this debate has already taken place and use that information to allow this conversation to move forward rather than re-hash old subjects.

Sorry, but in reality the argument has only been won in the state & local government legislatures because no politician wants to be known as anti-environment. The arguments & problems are still there in the commercial arena still, and probably will be for some time

The easiest way to understand the difference between Green building and best practices is to think of Green building as an umbrella that encompasses all of the best practices of all the components of the building process including the process itself.

Sorry but how many times do the various organizations USGBC, NAHB & others add in someone else's best practices (especially when they exceed theirs) - they can't and won't add in others best practices because they didn't think of it, or it supposedly not good enough or we have something better coming...

Just as an umbrella has many panels and ribs that come together in an equal and balanced fashion, so to is Green building the assemblage of multiple disciplines and considerations to create a balanced structure. Each single task contained in the larger context may be more or less green depending on the boundary conditions, but out of context they are simple 'best practices'. It is only when you bring them together that you can create something Green.
When the various parties get there - it will be a great day, unfortunately there are going to be a lot more fights before Utopia arrives - if ever

[naptownCr]

I am considering obtaining my LEED certifications and marketing my company as a remodeling entity that can "green" exisiting structures. My area of the country is receptive to the concept.

But as stated in this thread by others, I'm having some difficulty deciphering what is green and what is strictly energy conservation, and how to present so-called green products accurately.

Reference the ethanol fireplace that was touted as green by an architect on one of my projects. The client did some research of her own, and came to the conclusion that it wasn't so green. I don't want to find myself in the same position as that archy.

The term is "greenwashing" and unfortunately rampant among sellers of "green products" you need to do some research on each product you intend to install and make your own judgement.

[Michael Anschel]

Sorry for being absent here. I should have been checking back more often. I appreciate the dialogue that is taking place here and appreciate the fact that you are engaged in the process of seeking greater understanding.. I am going to try and tackle a number of questions/comments at once here.. Let's clear a few things up though.

1. LEED stands for Leadership in Energy and Environment Design. LEED is a certification for a variety of structures. The LEED Standard is owned by the USGBC US Green Building Council. The US Green Building Council is an independent organization. The USGBC is part of the much larger International Green Building Council.

2. LEED-NC (New Construction) was developed for commercial structures and has been around for over a decade. Since the development of LEED-NC, the USGBC has developed a slew of additional programs including: LEED-EB (Existing Buildings), LEED-for schools, LEED-CI (Commercial Interiors), and most recently LEED for Homes. Like it or not their program is the standard for Green building in the US. LEED is a requirement in many states for any building that uses public funds, and more recently a requirement for homes built in certain communities, and homes built over a certain size.

3. The NAHB created a residential Green standard/certification using a consensus process to obtain ANSI certification for their standard. Confusing? The NAHB standard also referred to as ICC 700-2008 is written in code style language anticipating the desire by states to have a Green code in the future. In terms of accuracy and meaningful measures I would rate the ICC 700-2008 aka NAHB Green Standard poor to very poor. It is short sighted, only considers green in the context of the house proper, does not take a systems approach to building, and essentially justifies existing substandard materials and practices. It is such a bad standard that it falls short of Green Communities standards (national affordable housing green standard). In short there is no NAHB vs LEED debate.

4. While I appreciate Naptown CR’s attempt at defining Green, I would suggest that the areas of consideration have been well defined and are not in need of re-defining. More importantly what defines Green is the standard you choose to use.
Energy Efficiency,
Resource efficiency (which includes durability) and LCA
Water conservation
Site impact
Social impact
Indoor environmental

For new construction add in Site selection, Linkages (proximity to infrastructure and services that do not require a car, proximity to mass transit, promotion of active life-style), and mixed economic development.

5. Baby steps vs Going whole hog. Most standards contain levels. This allows for the vast majority of projects to become green with minor changes that carry little to no additional cost. Increasing the degree to which green is implemented in the project you can achieve greater levels of green. From experience we can easily achieve most of the strategies without adding to the cost of the project by more than 1%. Remodeling green requires a change of practice more than anything. The materials are easy.

6. re: SLS construction’s comments: Contractors being sued for failing to meet LEED requirements on buildings are not failing because of the standard not being clear. They are failing because they did not do their due diligence and over-sold the project. If I tell a client that I will get their home MN GreenStar certified, I better be damn sure I can meet the requirements and that my organization understands how to navigate the process to achieve certification. If I am unsure, I might say that we are going to “attempt” certification of the project.

The debate continues in the commercial world. Of course. But it is more advanced then what is being tossed around by some of the readers of Remodel Crazy based on what I have read in other posts. My point is, look at the big guys. Read what has been published. Use that information to avoid re-inventing the wheel. Put your personal beliefs aside and apply yourself to the subject. Internationally there is a great debate taking place and serious programs like CASBEE are often pointed to as examples of where we need to go. The USGBC has been putting their program through a major overhaul to address some of the problems, but they are able to do that because a baseline has been established.

I think you mis-understood my umbrella metaphor. What I was explaining was that Green building encompasses a wide range of issues from sustainability to conservation to health to social justice and that each of the panels of the umbrella are like each one of these concerns. Not one of them is larger or more important than the other and it is in this balanced approach that green (like the umbrella) gets its strength.

I would disagree strongly with you on the best practices comment. While NAHB may pretend that best practices exist, the other programs (LEED, EarthCraft, MN GreenStar, Build-it-Green, MN GreenStar, Green Communities) actively seek out the latest best practices and incorporate them into their programs. I can assure you that the people who are sitting on the technical review committees for these programs are absolutely focused on raising the bar and making best practices into standard practice.

Finally, Bodger, You have a great Green building standard and certification in your area called “Build it Green” builditgreen.org/guidelines/residential. I would encourage you to attend West Coast Green westcoastgreen.com this fall, where I am sure you will learn more than you imagined. I know I plan to be there.

I would also encourage the readers of Remodel Crazy who are interested in getting to really understand Green (so that you can integrate it and sell it), to attend this years Remodeling Show in Indianapolis October 26-30 theremodelingshow.com/attendee/show-information.aspx. The sustainability track is designed to take you from basics through more complex concepts over the course of 4 days. The conference is dirt-cheap and the education will be good.

[Silvertree]

As you say there are levels of green but only one standard. For Green to work there should only be one standard. Because special interests always afford the best lobbyists and you are not a lobbyist I would consider your standard as par, especially since its considered from an business and idealist viewpoint.

Lets see where RC goes with this, it won't be a quiet debate.:2thumbsup:

[naptownCr]

Sorry for being absent here. I should have been checking back more often. I appreciate the dialogue that is taking place here and appreciate the fact that you are engaged in the process of seeking greater understanding.. I am going to try and tackle a number of questions/comments at once here.. Let's clear a few things up though.

1. LEED stands for Leadership in Energy and Environment Design. LEED is a certification for a variety of structures. The LEED Standard is owned by the USGBC US Green Building Council. The US Green Building Council is an independent organization. The USGBC is part of the much larger International Green Building Council.

2. LEED-NC (New Construction) was developed for commercial structures and has been around for over a decade. Since the development of LEED-NC, the USGBC has developed a slew of additional programs including: LEED-EB (Existing Buildings), LEED-for schools, LEED-CI (Commercial Interiors), and most recently LEED for Homes. Like it or not their program is the standard for Green building in the US. LEED is a requirement in many states for any building that uses public funds, and more recently a requirement for homes built in certain communities, and homes built over a certain size.

3. The NAHB created a residential Green standard/certification using a consensus process to obtain ANSI certification for their standard. Confusing? The NAHB standard also referred to as ICC 700-2008 is written in code style language anticipating the desire by states to have a Green code in the future. In terms of accuracy and meaningful measures I would rate the ICC 700-2008 aka NAHB Green Standard poor to very poor. It is short sighted, only considers green in the context of the house proper, does not take a systems approach to building, and essentially justifies existing substandard materials and practices. It is such a bad standard that it falls short of Green Communities standards (national affordable housing green standard). In short there is no NAHB vs LEED debate.

4. While I appreciate Naptown CR’s attempt at defining Green, I would suggest that the areas of consideration have been well defined and are not in need of re-defining. More importantly what defines Green is the standard you choose to use.
Energy Efficiency,
Resource efficiency (which includes durability) and LCA
Water conservation
Site impact
Social impact
Indoor environmental

For new construction add in Site selection, Linkages (proximity to infrastructure and services that do not require a car, proximity to mass transit, promotion of active life-style), and mixed economic development.

5. Baby steps vs Going whole hog. Most standards contain levels. This allows for the vast majority of projects to become green with minor changes that carry little to no additional cost. Increasing the degree to which green is implemented in the project you can achieve greater levels of green. From experience we can easily achieve most of the strategies without adding to the cost of the project by more than 1%. Remodeling green requires a change of practice more than anything. The materials are easy.

6. re: SLS construction’s comments: Contractors being sued for failing to meet LEED requirements on buildings are not failing because of the standard not being clear. They are failing because they did not do their due diligence and over-sold the project. If I tell a client that I will get their home MN GreenStar certified, I better be damn sure I can meet the requirements and that my organization understands how to navigate the process to achieve certification. If I am unsure, I might say that we are going to “attempt” certification of the project.

The debate continues in the commercial world. Of course. But it is more advanced then what is being tossed around by some of the readers of Remodel Crazy based on what I have read in other posts. My point is, look at the big guys. Read what has been published. Use that information to avoid re-inventing the wheel. Put your personal beliefs aside and apply yourself to the subject. Internationally there is a great debate taking place and serious programs like CASBEE are often pointed to as examples of where we need to go. The USGBC has been putting their program through a major overhaul to address some of the problems, but they are able to do that because a baseline has been established.

I think you mis-understood my umbrella metaphor. What I was explaining was that Green building encompasses a wide range of issues from sustainability to conservation to health to social justice and that each of the panels of the umbrella are like each one of these concerns. Not one of them is larger or more important than the other and it is in this balanced approach that green (like the umbrella) gets its strength.

I would disagree strongly with you on the best practices comment. While NAHB may pretend that best practices exist, the other programs (LEED, EarthCraft, MN GreenStar, Build-it-Green, MN GreenStar, Green Communities) actively seek out the latest best practices and incorporate them into their programs. I can assure you that the people who are sitting on the technical review committees for these programs are absolutely focused on raising the bar and making best practices into standard practice.

Finally, Bodger, You have a great Green building standard and certification in your area called “Build it Green” builditgreen.org/guidelines/residential. I would encourage you to attend West Coast Green westcoastgreen.com this fall, where I am sure you will learn more than you imagined. I know I plan to be there.

I would also encourage the readers of Remodel Crazy who are interested in getting to really understand Green (so that you can integrate it and sell it), to attend this years Remodeling Show in Indianapolis October 26-30 theremodelingshow.com/attendee/show-information.aspx. The sustainability track is designed to take you from basics through more complex concepts over the course of 4 days. The conference is dirt-cheap and the education will be good.

Michael
i agree with you on the concept of green.
However there are some here and many elsewhere that do not. My thought was to introduce the concept and practices incrementally, baby steps so to speak. There are many aspects to green, agreed however as far as education goes perhaps we can break it down into bite sized chunks? I think the greatest obstacle to green building is ignorance. The simpler and more understandable we can make it the greater the understanding among the masses. We don't teach the theory or relativity in physics 101.

[Silvertree]

We don't teach the theory or relativity in physics 101.

I gotta go with that.:2thumbsup:

[Michael Anschel]

Agreed you can't expect a deep understanding at the start, but what I am suggesting is that you cannot expect to understand the details until you understand the big picture, the the big picture is not physics, it is ecology. If you start with an understanding of the interconnected nature of stuff, then moving deeper into the minutia debates on one wall assembly versus another is easy. The frame of reference MUST be the bigger picture.

A good example of this is when attendees ask me which type of insulation is best. The answer is of course "I don't know, it depends on the assembly". What we need to be doing is thinking in terms of interconnected parts and that thread stretches from energy performance, to embodied energy, to resource loss, to future impact, all the way back to the people who extracted the raw material and the impact to the planet.

BTW There can never be one standard. Commercial construction is nothing like Residential construction which is not the same as remodeling. Lucky for us we only need to deal with remodeling, which makes the standard easier to identify. Still, regional considerations for both climate and resources need to be considered, and no national standard does that.

[Silvertree]

Oh great, I may just get in the middle of Michael and Naptown.

Both you guys are headed in the same direction, but were still arguing semantics.

Here's what I suggest, that the RC blog set a system that results in agreement.
After that we can argue the details.

For example (and I'll take the hit), were talking Green and Sustainable but we spend more time discussing other issues, they may be related but were jumping around the issue.

Remodel Crazy needs an energy czar.
Or a Green czar.

Let's get some articles on the blog to keep this topic moving forward.

[naptownCr]

Agreed you can't expect a deep understanding at the start, but what I am suggesting is that you cannot expect to understand the details until you understand the big picture, the the big picture is not physics, it is ecology. If you start with an understanding of the interconnected nature of stuff, then moving deeper into the minutia debates on one wall assembly versus another is easy. The frame of reference MUST be the bigger picture.

A good example of this is when attendees ask me which type of insulation is best. The answer is of course "I don't know, it depends on the assembly". What we need to be doing is thinking in terms of interconnected parts and that thread stretches from energy performance, to embodied energy, to resource loss, to future impact, all the way back to the people who extracted the raw material and the impact to the planet.

BTW There can never be one standard. Commercial construction is nothing like Residential construction which is not the same as remodeling. Lucky for us we only need to deal with remodeling, which makes the standard easier to identify. Still, regional considerations for both climate and resources need to be considered, and no national standard does that.

OK where should we start

Being a typical American I am interested in the bottom line.

I also understand that the bottom line may not be what it appears on the surface.

Let's agree on a starting place for the education on green practices, be it energy conservation, sustainable resources or whatever.

The baby steps I referred to were choosing a topic and educating on that in relation to the big picture. One step at a time

[Silvertree]

Lets start with do you save money? Long term?
Then how it makes you feel.
Then how its done.
Then how its going to be done.
Then where to get information (I have a website recommended by Mike A)

[naptownCr]

Lets start with do you save money? Long term?
Then how it makes you feel.
Then how its done.
Then how its going to be done.
Then where to get information (I have a website recommended by Mike A)

we need to add cost benefit to the mix as far as return on investment etc.
Many green products are actually less expensive in the long run than non green products. Unfortunately the general public is misinformed and many times scammed.

[Silvertree]

we need to add cost benefit to the mix as far as return on investment etc.
Many green products are actually less expensive in the long run than non green products. Unfortunately the general public is misinformed and many times scammed.

That's what we need to know.

[Michael Anschel]

C'mon guys. We can do better than that. Saving money? Really? That is not even part of the equation!

Start with building understanding of the purpose/mission of green building.
Then build understanding of the five-seven core components
Then start talking about systems that work or don't work
Then discuss the LCA and trade-offs with those systems
Perhaps then we can entertain discussion about long-term vs short term carbon cost implications of those systems

Lets encourage the group to never discuss a product out of context. That would help them understand the importance of systems thinking.

You have an audience, don't pander to the lowest common denominator. Help them understand how this stuff works.

(I still think a Remodel Crazy field trip to the Remodeling show is in order)

[Silvertree]

Michael, Remodel Crazy will cover all those topics. A field trip? If there is booze and pole dancing we'll need to rent a couple Greyhounds.
Save on gas that way:rolleyes3:


On your passion and mission? No one has asked you to keep quiet, so bring it on. You know me, Remodel Crazy is doing good work and will only get better as the collective it is.

[Michael Anschel]

There will be plenty of booze I'm sure. Pole dancing.. If that is how you get your exercise, I'm not going to judge.

The Remodeling Show has 10 classes on the sustainable track that walk attendees through each of the components to provide a well rounded understanding. A great starting point for sure!

[Silvertree]

There is a group from Remodel Crazy going to that show.
By the way, I saw your video, the 5 or 6 lies?

If you own that we would be happy to put it on the blog.......


As long as I can introduce you as one of my colleagues.
Or one of my former apprentices :rolleyes3::laugh3:

[Eieio]

I am going to use a Chris Wright slang. Green is so filled with NOISE right now.

This thread is 3 pages long and I ain't see the goods yet

I still have not seen anything of value.

I having seen anything I can research.

I need something of substance to market

The hoopla is drowning out the message.

The fighting and disagreements among organizations and members is deafing

Look we all want to serve the earth an all but I need some tangible information.

Everyone says read this book, look at this chart, study this diagram WTF is that about.

Give me facts and figures I can study and market from.

I want to research and gather the intel but no one is making a solid case or given me any hard facts I can use.

I have no doubt green will come together, I hope its sooner and a few leaders stand up and take control of the stage

[Bender]

Agreed you can't expect a deep understanding at the start, but what I am suggesting is that you cannot expect to understand the details until you understand the big picture, the the big picture is not physics, it is ecology. If you start with an understanding of the interconnected nature of stuff, then moving deeper into the minutia debates on one wall assembly versus another is easy. The frame of reference MUST be the bigger picture.

That is very well put Michael. +1

[Michael Anschel]

It is HW content. No easy way to link to it either. one of the shortcomings of HW mindset re web. If you send me an email complaining that you can't link to the video and that the HW site loads slower than molasses, I will send it to the boss who may be able to help.

[SLS-Construction]

C'mon guys. We can do better than that. Saving money? Really? That is not even part of the equation!

Start with building understanding of the purpose/mission of green building.
Then build understanding of the five-seven core components
Then start talking about systems that work or don't work
Then discuss the LCA and trade-offs with those systems
Perhaps then we can entertain discussion about long-term vs short term carbon cost implications of those systems

Lets encourage the group to never discuss a product out of context. That would help them understand the importance of systems thinking.

You have an audience, don't pander to the lowest common denominator. Help them understand how this stuff works.

(I still think a Remodel Crazy field trip to the Remodeling show is in order)

Mike I have read your stuff for quite a while - but I think you seriously need a reality check.

CUSTOMERS generally only care about how something looks, or how it will save them money. Do you know how many problems we have with people trying to go the cheapest route on the building - simply so they can put in granite counter tops?

Some customers care about all the x's & o's and how this does that, and some actually care about the environment without paying lip service, and then some even care that Pluto is no longer a planet but by & large they are such a small percentage that is unbelievable. If I lived in Seattle or some other hot bed area your words above may influence them, but by and large none of us will probably ever deal with someone like that more than once.

This goes back to what most of us have been saying - there truly is no green building system. You have how many groups fighting for the title, going after government dollars, or to help save there group from unnecessary expense - the vision & term is basically toast right now.

I would also suggest staying away from that carbon footprint junk science & offsets also, how is it that Al Gore's house & everything else is carbon neutral - oh, he just buys a few credits & hops off in a private jet to go make another speech while leaving his 4 AC units running at home.

Now as for systems that work and don't work, what works for one house may not work for the house built next door. Why? Well it all comes down to how that house was designed & built - I think I recall reading those words from one of your posts I read today. But what do I know - I am only a GC. (from another posting of yours? :censored:)

I hope to catch you in Indy, but you might want to look out from beyond the panel tables & speakers stands to see what real is. Hopefully reality soon catches up with most of your vision - until then you will have to settle with it it may cost a little more up front but it will help you save money on energy, water, allow you to breathe easier, lasts longer with less maintenance, etc...

[Michael Anschel]

Servicezunlimited,
I appreciate your frustration, but the point is Green is neither simple nor easy at first. The reading may seem problematic to you, but it is essential as there are no one-size-fits-all solutions.
You are based out of DC. What is the local Green remodeling standard? Do what it says you need to do to certify. If there is not one, then use the MN GreenStar checklist and homeowners manual to determine what you need to do. Seriously. If you don't want to become a Green Geek like me, it is easiest to just follow the instructions in the program.

[naptownCr]

C'mon guys. We can do better than that. Saving money? Really? That is not even part of the equation!

maybe not but the part that is the most understood


Start with building understanding of the purpose/mission of green building.
Then build understanding of the five-seven core components
Then start talking about systems that work or don't work
Then discuss the LCA and trade-offs with those systems
Perhaps then we can entertain discussion about long-term vs short term carbon cost implications of those systems

Lets encourage the group to never discuss a product out of context. That would help them understand the importance of systems thinking.

You have an audience, don't pander to the lowest common denominator. Help them understand how this stuff works.

The lowest common demonimator is what is understood! If you miss this point you are missing mainstream America.There are peopls that get it and those that don't. The average American couldn't give a S&%t about green. Tie the benefits in savings to them and you will bring them on board to the greater cause. There is a percentage of people who "get it" but the vast majority do not. Particularly in this economic climate my thoughts are to push the immediate benefits and educate on the long term.
(I still think a Remodel Crazy field trip to the Remodeling show is in order)

Just my opinion I may be wrong

[Michael Anschel]

SLS, You are spot on with the consumer problem. But that is no excuse. We are the pros and we should not be compromising our standards for mis-aligned priorities. I believe that it is not the homeowner's place to decide what kind of header I put in the wall, what insulation I use, what window I select.

I appreciate the 'get out from behind the speakers podium', and I do appreciate that you have read my postings. I hope you also recognize that I am still running a remodeling company and that we are practicing what we preach. I love theory, but I agree that rubber and road are where the real lessons are learned.

Carbon is not junk science. Carbon off-sets may be in need of regulation, and yes I purchase them when I fly. Climate change is a hot debate, and the degree to which you want to accept scientific consensus is your choice. But, the ability to measure carbon, methane, and other GHG's and convert them back to Carbon as a way of measuring impact is not junk science. More importantly, it is the yardstick by which everything is currently being measured. Like baseball, you may not like the rules, but if you want to win the game, you have to play ball. :)

[Michael Anschel]

If you try and sell green on potential savings you will fail. It is too hard to prove, and the payback is often a long time coming. If you want to sell product based on payback you might have better luck, but that is something different.

I sell Green every day. I sell it the same way I sell everything else. I believe in it.

[Michael Anschel]

I do appreciate the dialouge, and for those of you who make it to Indy, perhaps Silvertree will help coordinate a Remodel Crazy hour where we can have a fun and healthy discussion followed by a beer.

[Eieio]

Servicezunlimited,
I appreciate your frustration, but the point is Green is neither simple nor easy at first. The reading may seem problematic to you, but it is essential as there are no one-size-fits-all solutions.
You are based out of DC. What is the local Green remodeling standard? Do what it says you need to do to certify. If there is not one, then use the MN GreenStar checklist and homeowners manual to determine what you need to do. Seriously. If you don't want to become a Green Geek like me, it is easiest to just follow the instructions in the program.

I hear ya.

I started to sign up for the Leed certification classes. Only to find out they were being canceled and being revised and updated

They are starting new classes in December I think.

Guys were screaming that they just plunked down money, studied and passed a few months back now the rules changed.

That really went over well.

[Silvertree]

Well, ignorance is bliss.

I have my own windmills to charge, but I do believe this forum would make a difference and we will move forward as an educational site for Green, Universal Design and other forward looking building practices.

NARI and NAHB are playing around with it, but they are too involved in promoting their organizations to ever be a respectable national authority.

Challenge that MFO's

[naptownCr]

SLS, You are spot on with the consumer problem. But that is no excuse. We are the pros and we should not be compromising our standards for mis-aligned priorities. I believe that it is not the homeowner's place to decide what kind of header I put in the wall, what insulation I use, what window I select.

I appreciate the 'get out from behind the speakers podium', and I do appreciate that you have read my postings. I hope you also recognize that I am still running a remodeling company and that we are practicing what we preach. I love theory, but I agree that rubber and road are where the real lessons are learned.

Carbon is not junk science. Carbon off-sets may be in need of regulation, and yes I purchase them when I fly. Climate change is a hot debate, and the degree to which you want to accept scientific consensus is your choice. But, the ability to measure carbon, methane, and other GHG's and convert them back to Carbon as a way of measuring impact is not junk science. More importantly, it is the yardstick by which everything is currently being measured. Like baseball, you may not like the rules, but if you want to win the game, you have to play ball. :)Michael read this statement that you made. You run a company and have cornered or created a niche market for yourself. Our point is taking this to the masses. In this country I would be willing to bet there are 1000 non green remodels for each green one. Getting back to my original statement that America thinks with their wallet theme. Why is ice stone not as popular a choice as granite. It's green, made from recycled bottles in a daylighted factory in a reclaimed building in Brooklyn. Its made from concrete and glass perhaps with some flyash thrown in for good measure, its local to most of the east coast. Problem is it costs more tham most granites and is not nearly as attractive. the product is selling but not nearly on the scale that other products such as granite and quartz are selling. Don't get me wrong I agree with the concept and the product but I get it and the vast majority do not.

[SLS-Construction]

SLS, You are spot on with the consumer problem. But that is no excuse. We are the pros and we should not be compromising our standards for mis-aligned priorities. I believe that it is not the homeowner's place to decide what kind of header I put in the wall, what insulation I use, what window I select.

True & trust me I have lost enough customers based on just that. As for the insulation part, many people can not afford spray foam or other higher end options or choose not to, so should they simply live in a cardboard box, or should I turn away their business even though it meets / exceeds codes?

I appreciate the 'get out from behind the speakers podium', and I do appreciate that you have read my postings. I hope you also recognize that I am still running a remodeling company and that we are practicing what we preach. I love theory, but I agree that rubber and road are where the real lessons are learned.

I know you still do design-build work, I read that quite clearly along with your opinion of GC's - at least we wern't likened to proctologists. I am glad you are in a place where you can still do what you love, and how you want to do it

Carbon is not junk science. Carbon off-sets may be in need of regulation, and yes I purchase them when I fly. Climate change is a hot debate, and the degree to which you want to accept scientific consensus is your choice. But, the ability to measure carbon, methane, and other GHG's and convert them back to Carbon as a way of measuring impact is not junk science. More importantly, it is the yardstick by which everything is currently being measured. Like baseball, you may not like the rules, but if you want to win the game, you have to play ball. :)

On this we will have to disagree, as most claims made out there IMO are pure unadulterated junk science. Just because you can measure something, doesn't make it worthy of measurment and you can't buy your way into heaven are just two saying's that comes to mind for buying carbon offsets. Most people simply buy them as a way of saying look at me, or I am better than you - while many corporations buy them simply as a get out of jail free card.

A beer after an 1 hour RC / Green meet & greet bash sounds great

Paul - NAHB has a shot, even though USGBC is getting to be pretty well entrenched - NARI not a shot right now

[naptownCr]

Thank you all for the lively debate
let this continue and maybe we will come to some concensus before I die

[Eieio]

Well that concludes tonight WWE on RC.

Hope you tune in tomorrow for The Cage match :laugh3:

[bconley]

SLS, You are spot on with the consumer problem. But that is no excuse. We are the pros and we should not be compromising our standards for mis-aligned priorities. I believe that it is not the homeowner's place to decide what kind of header I put in the wall, what insulation I use, what window I select.

I appreciate the 'get out from behind the speakers podium', and I do appreciate that you have read my postings. I hope you also recognize that I am still running a remodeling company and that we are practicing what we preach. I love theory, but I agree that rubber and road are where the real lessons are learned.

Carbon is not junk science. Carbon off-sets may be in need of regulation, and yes I purchase them when I fly. Climate change is a hot debate, and the degree to which you want to accept scientific consensus is your choice. But, the ability to measure carbon, methane, and other GHG's and convert them back to Carbon as a way of measuring impact is not junk science. More importantly, it is the yardstick by which everything is currently being measured. Like baseball, you may not like the rules, but if you want to win the game, you have to play ball. :)


I think the key here is the term Best Practices if we truly used the best practice, not "standard practice" or the way we have always done them, we will come a long way achieving a truly "green" way of life.
For green to work it has become the way things are done not just a buzzword.

From Wikipedia,

A Best practice is a technique, method, process, activity, incentive, or reward that is believed to be more effective at delivering a particular outcome than any other technique, method, process, etc. when applied to a particular condition or circumstance. The idea is that with proper processes, checks, and testing, a desired outcome can be delivered with fewer problems and unforeseen complications. Best practices can also be defined as the most efficient (least amount of effort) and effective (best results) way of accomplishing a task, based on repeatable procedures that have proven themselves over time for large numbers of people.

A given best practice is only applicable to particular condition or circumstance and may have to be modified or adapted for similar circumstances. In addition, a "best" practice can evolve to become better as improvements are discovered.[1]

Despite the need to improve on processes as times change and things evolve, best-practice is considered by some as a business buzzword used to describe the process of developing and following a standard way of doing things that multiple organizations can use for management, policy, and especially software systems.

As the term has become more popular, some organizations have begun using the term "best practices" to refer to what are in fact merely 'rules', causing a linguistic drift in which a new term such as "good ideas" is needed to refer to what would previously have been called "best practices."

Bill

[Winchester]

C'mon guys. We can do better than that. Saving money? Really? That is not even part of the equation!

I would kill for some customers like that. I've only had one.

[Bender]

Somewhat off topic:

I had a great debate with my little brother who is working on an agricultural degree.
The argument was 'Whats healthier, organic meats or store bought?'

Although organic (green) practices are better for you, its impractical to feed 6 billion people that way. So if (most) people are getting some nutrition, with $1.00 burgers at McDonald's and such, is that better for the system as a whole?

[Winchester]

Somewhat off topic:

I had a great debate with my little brother who is working on an agricultural degree.
The argument was 'Whats healthier, organic meats or store bought?'

Although organic (green) practices are better for you, its impractical to feed 6 billion people that way. So if (most) people are getting some nutrition, with $1.00 burgers at McDonald's and such, is that better for the system as a whole?

Like old mcdonald said earlier: The idealists message sounds nice at first until you actually think about it.

They live in "la-la land" where money (or reality) is of no concern.