Myths about costly Restoration

[JasonW]

When you talk about restoring an older or Historical home there is a common misconception that costs will be much higher than just tearing the thing down and starting over. If you're thinking about buying an older home, don't let this discourage you, more often than not, it's just not true.

The fact is that many home owners and Contractors are unfamiliar with restoration methods and you might be going far beyond what needs to be done to fix a problem. This will have a huge affect on the cost of the project. My first recommendation would be to hire an Architect or Contractor with experience in Preservation and Restoration work and use them as an adviser for your project.

Some of the examples I can share are from visits I've made to Home owners after they had a few prices from other Contractors with no experience in Restoration work. One of them stands out most vividly. It was a home that had the original plaster still in tact. The stairway had a few cracks running up the walls and was in need of repair. They looked in the local paper for someone who repaired Sheetrock and met with them at the house. This Contractors assessment of the damage lead to his recommendation of removing all of the lath and plaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lath_and_plaster) then replacing it with Sheetrock. The price tag for all of this work exceeded $3,500.00. This was more than they expected so they looked for another Contractor to give them another price, they found our Company and I went to look at the project.

The first thing I noticed was how well the old plaster was still keyed in to the wood lath. Only a few small areas seemed to be loose and the wall, for the most part, was still in great condition. My assessment of the project cost them about $1000.00 to repair, took about 1/3 of the time to do, and didn't disrupt the home with all that demolition debris, dust, and needless tracking in and out of the house. I still work on the house to this day and about 5 years have passed since we did this repair. All is still in great condition with no failures.

Another great example would be sill noses on old windows. Many Carpenters would rather replace them rather than repair them. A lot of this reasoning comes from failed attempts at repairing the sills. That is mostly because they are using inferior products to patch the soft areas on the sill. You just can't buy the right material for this work off the shelf at your local hardware store or lumber yard. There are specific 2 part epoxies that work best for this application and nothing else should be substituted for it. There are many brands to choose from but the one we use is Abatron (http://www.abatron.com/cms/). They are pioneers in the Restoration industry and have many great products for wood and concrete restoration. They're materials are even approved by the National Parks Association for work on Registered Historic Buildings all over the Country. We use it because it works, and it's cost affective for our customers.

There is literally millions of great deals to be had on older homes out there right now. Before you decide that it's to much work to fix these places, talk to a Restoration expert in your area, you might be surprised how little needs to be done when you get the right advice.

[naptownCr]

Good post

Your approach on the plaster repairs is one I commend and would like to see more of. You acted in the clients best interests. Did not try to sell them on things they might not necessarily need, and created a client for life. This will be rewarded in future work with owner and referrals from him or her.:2thumbsup:

[Blue]

I like to replace the sill, but have filled my share for customers wanting to sell. What does http://vtrenovations.com/ do when they encounter a sash from a casement window that is rot all the way through?

[Silvertree]

I have done and still do repair work. People are surprised when I say a rotten ribbon joist or window casing can be made to look whole again. Same with plaster, their are methods to repair even heavily damaged plaster and plaster moldings.

Typically someone with no repair experience offers a remove and replace with modern materials solution. The home I live in now is gypsum backed plaster, this is great fireproofing, and reduces sound transmission and is easily repaired.

Costs are usually a factor in any restoration, but as Jason says, get someone with experience in this type of work, anyone can replace something, the real experts can offer you a better choice.

[Blue]

I have done and still do repair work. People are surprised when I say a rotten ribbon joist or window casing can be made to look whole again. Same with plaster, their are methods to repair even heavily damaged plaster and plaster moldings.

Typically someone with no repair experience offers a remove and replace with modern materials solution. The home I live in now is gypsum backed plaster, this is great fireproofing, and reduces sound transmission and is easily repaired.

Costs are usually a factor in any restoration, but as Jason says, get someone with experience in this type of work, anyone can replace something, the real experts can offer you a better choice.

We (http://www.goblueribbon.com) always try to sell sill replacement, because over the last quarter century ,we have seen many products come and go that allow filling of wood rot, but you never know how long it will hold.

You are partnering your company and your name with a product. It is important to know if that product will meet your standards.

[JasonW]

I like to replace the sill, but have filled my share for customers wanting to sell. What does http://vtrenovations.com/ do when they encounter a sash from a casement window that is rot all the way through?

We have that situation on a project right now as a matter of fact.

In a Historic home we would remove the sash and repair the rotted part with new. Depending on the costs and other points of interests to the project, if it's an older house, we would consider replacement of the unit. That is the case with our current project. It's an energy efficient upgrade project and this particular area where the window sash rotted get's a lot of weather. By removing the entire unit and replacing it we can do a lot more upgrades to the flashing's and water shed around the window.

We have a great local supplier that makes Historically correct window units at a great savings to the customer. The prices are about 1/2 of what Marvin windows charge and they have have a comparable warranty.

Green Mountain windows (http://www.greenmountainwindow.com/)Check them out next time you need to replace an older window unit. They're National.;)

[Blue]

Thanks Jason,

We run into this all the time, as I'm sure every member in here does.

[ChrWright]

Most of the historic districts I work in will allow replacement of windows so long as they are all wood and match the original mull profiles. This is obviously the most energy efficient option.

However, when the budget or preservation interest don't allow for total replacement--a small lumber yard or local craftsman can be your best bet. We have a small lumber yard here in Indy that will make replacement sashes for me to match the old double hung, single glazed windows we often run into. The cost is usually very reasonable (around $125 a sash) and even includes mortising for rope weights.

Unfortunately, the small family owned yards and hardware stores are dying away.

[Silvertree]

We have the sash option still at one yard I have an account at, plus they will make me doors.

[neolitic]

Most of the historic districts I work in will allow replacement of windows so long as they are all wood and match the original mull profiles. This is obviously the most energy efficient option.

However, when the budget or preservation interest don't allow for total replacement--a small lumber yard or local craftsman can be your best bet. We have a small lumber yard here in Indy that will make replacement sashes for me to match the old double hung, single glazed windows we often run into. The cost is usually very reasonable (around $125 a sash) and even includes mortising for rope weights.

Unfortunately, the small family owned yards and hardware stores are dying away.

Which yard?
I thought Carter-Lee was the
last mill, since Butz went under.

[ChrWright]

Home Lumber, near East side...Unless they're gone now too...It's been awhile since I've been in. They had a fire not too long ago.

[neolitic]

Home Lumber, near East side...Unless they're gone now too...It's been awhile since I've been in. They had a fire not too long ago.

I don't think they came back.
Last I checked the only Home Lumber
left in the phone book was in Danville.

Hmmph, just looked, they're gone too. :rolleyes3:

[ChrWright]

That sucks, although it doesn't surprise me. It was pretty dead that last few times I was there (which as I recall was a few years ago).

[neolitic]

One by one....
I had a door job priced out with Butz's door shop,
four days later I went up to pay the deposit and
get it started.
No cars in the lot, gates shut, doors locked......

[ChrWright]

Good thing it wasn't AFTER you'd paid the deposit.

Even Carter Lee was bought out by a larger co. I miss Tim & Billy's/Tim & Avi's a lot, too. Their salvage place on Ft. Wayne was a lot of fun to go root around in.

Ever do any business with Superior Distributing downtown? Sold out two years ago to Courter Co.

[neolitic]

Good thing it wasn't AFTER you'd paid the deposit.

Even Carter Lee was bought out by a larger co. I miss Tim & Billy's/Tim & Avi's a lot, too. Their salvage place on Ft. Wayne was a lot of fun to go root around in.

Ever do any business with Superior Distributing downtown? Sold out two years ago to Courter Co.

They were my go to hardware guys.
I'm still not over that.
They were only 15 minutes away,
Courter's clear across town, and
can't hold a candle for knowledge,
service, or selection. :mad:

[neolitic]

Have you found anyone to take
Tim and Billy's place?
Quite a few bathrooms wouldn't
have been really complete without
their stuff to fill in the gaps.

[ChrWright]

They were my go to hardware guys.
I'm still not over that.
They were only 15 minutes away,
Courter's clear across town, and
can't hold a candle for knowledge,
service, or selection. :mad:

Not sure if you ever dealt with Diane Drake at Superior...but she's now at Winner Hardware on Troy. We get a lot of stuff through her now instead of driving all the way to the NW side.

I think the main reason Courter bought them was to sell Blum.

I haven't found anything close to Tim & Billy's... White River Antiques/Doc Keys has some stuff but it's mostly higher end.

[neolitic]

Not sure if you ever dealt with Diane Drake at Superior...but she's now at Winner Hardware on Troy. We get a lot of stuff through her now instead of driving all the way to the NW side.

I think the main reason Courter bought them was to sell Blum.

I haven't found anything close to Tim & Billy's... White River Antiques/Doc Keys has some stuff but it's mostly higher end.

:laugh4: I can walk to Winner's.
I buy my P-C stuff there.
Never thought of them as hardware.
Thanks. http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/neoliticman/smiliethumbsup.gif


Sorry for the hijack Jason.

[WarnerConstInc.]

You guys are touching on my space that I am trying to fill here in Auburn.

By buying some of the tools that I have been over the last 2 years, they allow me to set up a little mill shop on site and repair and restore those hard to replace items.

I agree, it is always better to restore/repair something that is old, vs. toss it in the trash.

Maybe in another few years they will be a good place to go find the sort of things you guys are looking for, right here in my town.

Opening a small salvage shop, that offers refinishing, repairs, replication, or complete restoration, is where I want to be in the next 5-7 years.

I just need to buy an old building downtown, (something else to work on).

[ChrWright]

You guys are touching on my space that I am trying to fill here in Auburn.

By buying some of the tools that I have been over the last 2 years, they allow me to set up a little mill shop on site and repair and restore those hard to replace items.

I agree, it is always better to restore/repair something that is old, vs. toss it in the trash.

Maybe in another few years they will be a good place to go find the sort of things you guys are looking for, right here in my town.

Opening a small salvage shop, that offers refinishing, repairs, replication, or complete restoration, is where I want to be in the next 5-7 years.

I just need to buy an old building downtown, (something else to work on).

That was half the charm of Tim & Billy's. They had this quirky old building downtown that you could wander around in for a whole day and probably not see everything. There was an outside yard with old claw foot tubs and sinks and toilets laying around. Inside--room after room after room of old housewares. Doors...windows...door knobs... wrought iron railings... old tile... anything.

Damn I miss that place.

They moved a little farther North a few years before they finally closed, but it wasn't the same.

[WarnerConstInc.]

I think there is a good market for that kind of thing here.

I am tired of working like a dog, I want to start enjoying work a bit more, dont get me wrong, this stuff still gets me excited but, I think I know what I really want to do now.

[ChrWright]

Sorry for the hijack Jason... Please don't smite me with your new Mod powers... :grin:

http://thinkerspodium.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/smite.jpg

[WarnerConstInc.]

We didn't really hi-jack it, it just goes to show a person that there is a real demand for this sort of thing.

Thanks for bringing it up Jason!!

[JasonW]

I thought the conversation was interesting. I too have needed the local millshop for moldings and special items that you can't get off the shelf.

it's a dieing breed and because of that, we do our own millwork now. Oddly enough, there is a great demand for this and we are trying to position ourselves to meet this demand.

Think about that; shipping is cheap, you know my number:grin:

[naptownCr]

I thought the conversation was interesting. I too have needed the local millshop for moldings and special items that you can't get off the shelf.

it's a dieing breed and because of that, we do our own millwork now. Oddly enough, there is a great demand for this and we are trying to position ourselves to meet this demand.

Think about that; shipping is cheap, you know my number:grin:

Shipping over 500 miles isn't green:rolleyes3:

[JasonW]

Are you sure of where your stuff comes from? I found out that my local yard was getting Millwork from KY. About 500 miles away.

[Dusty]

Just an FYI

Architectural Artifacts in Toledo, OH ( http://www.coolstuffiscoolstuff.com/ ) specializes in antique building supplies. I don't know if they do mill work, but I do know they stock hundreds of doors, windows, tubs, toilets, lighting etc..

For you guys who do historical restoration you may want to keep their name on file.

[Silvertree]

For a while I was the guy people called to install old doors, fixtures ect. I could get a new door for $250 and the HO's would buy a beat up old door for about the same price and I would rehinge, flip the lockset and make it work.

2 years ago I installed interior French doors which I made from 2 exterior doors a customer found at a salvage yard. Both had to be trimmed square since they were cut to fit in a sagging house. Took me a couple of days to get them right.

Looked dumb at first, finished out nice. Like to think I coaxed another 100 years out of them. That's the stuff I call real carpentry work.