Framing guru needed

[Blue]

I have to get a 3/12 pitch in on a shed roof under a second story window- bottom in the way.

My question has to do with the HAP. I have seen the rule stated 2/3 of the HAP remains and 1/3 is being cut away. The theory being that strength will be maintained and have adequate bearing on all points. However, I need to be closer to 3" HAP to miss that window and maintain my 3/12 pitch. So cutting out 8 inches of that rafter needs to happen.

Now that I typed it out it may be an easy search of UBC to get clarification but your thoughts welcome......more than welcome.

[Bodger]

I have to get a 3/12 pitch in on a shed roof under a second story window- bottom in the way.

My question has to do with the HAP. I have seen the rule stated 2/3 of the HAP remains and 1/3 is being cut away. The theory being that strength will be maintained and have adequate bearing on all points. However, I need to be closer to 3" HAP to miss that window and maintain my 3/12 pitch. So cutting out 8 inches of that rafter needs to happen.

Now that I typed it out it may be an easy search of UBC to get clarification but your thoughts welcome......more than welcome.


It's 2/3 in my jurisdiction. You're cutting 8" out of a 2 X 12?
Does that lower the rafter hell and gone below the plate behind the seat cut??

You could always go on CT and reach out to Joe Carola. He invented framing.

[framer55]

2/3 here also...

Second try and find Joe, he is the man on these items....

[Bodger]

2/3 here also...

Second try and find Joe, he is the man on these items....


Joe's a deluxe PITA, but he knows his framing like nobody's business.

I'm still waiting for Blue to come back in here and 'splain this. I'm assuming he's using 2 X 12 rafter stock, which if cut to 3" HAP, will drop the bottom of the rafter well below the plate on the inside. I want to know if he's blocking for that or what.

Or my head is wrapped around this thing all wrong. That could be the case as well.

[Winchester]

Joe's a deluxe PITA, but he knows his framing like nobody's business.

I'm still waiting for Blue to come back in here and 'splain this. I'm assuming he's using 2 X 12 rafter stock, which if cut to 3" HAP, will drop the bottom of the rafter well below the plate on the inside. I want to know if he's blocking for that or what.

Or my head is wrapped around this thing all wrong. That could be the case as well.

hey bodgey i drew ya a picher

[Eieio]

This is the reason God invented the Simpson clip..

[Bodger]

hey bodgey i drew ya a picher


There it is.
I was picturing a notch instead of a seat cut. Thanks.

Blue, you were absolutely no help in this.

[Bodger]

This is the reason God invented the Simpson clip..

You mean like a A-35 on the side of the rafter and nailed to the plate? Isn't the concern on the HAP that the rafter doesn't have enough meat left to bear the load where it's cut? What kind of TICO would relieve that?

[Winchester]

You mean like a A-35 on the side of the rafter and nailed to the plate? Isn't the concern on the HAP that the rafter doesn't have enough meat left to bear the load where it's cut? What kind of TICO would relieve that?

bangin a bunch of nails to the CJ. it should transfer the load to the plate. Just like a bearing wall doesn't have to be directly above (<200mm?) another bearing wall, the FJs transfer the load.

keep in mind that i don't know the code, i'm too lazy to look it up, and it is probably different there than here anyway

[Greg from K/W]

Damn it I hate these regional terms for stuff. What is a HAP? I know a hip and birds mouth a rafter tail and an over hang wth is a hap?

[Blue]

There it is.
I was picturing a notch instead of a seat cut. Thanks.

Blue, you were absolutely no help in this.

Sorry I thought I going to have the day off and all of a sudden the gremlins attacked. No there would be no concern for the drywall dying in to low. Yes I would have to block them in. I was just wondering if I could get by with that massive of a cut, every inch is golden on this thing.

Plus even if I get that 3/12 I will most likely have the roof sheathing hitting the bottom of the windo sill. I really have no idea how to addres that for flashing. I think its just a leak ready to happen if you ask me.

[bconley]

Can you use 2x8 and ridged insulation

[bconley]

Damn it I hate these regional terms for stuff. What is a HAP? I know a hip and birds mouth a rafter tail and an over hang wth is a hap?
Height above plate

[Bodger]

bangin a bunch of nails to the CJ. it should transfer the load to the plate. Just like a bearing wall doesn't have to be directly above (<200mm?) another bearing wall, the FJs transfer the load.

keep in mind that i don't know the code, i'm too lazy to look it up, and it is probably different there than here anyway

Makes sense, just like the code that addresses how much of the joist has to contact the top plate. Here I think it's 1 1/2".

[naptownCr]

Sorry I thought I going to have the day off and all of a sudden the gremlins attacked. No there would be no concern for the drywall dying in to low. Yes I would have to block them in. I was just wondering if I could get by with that massive of a cut, every inch is golden on this thing.

Plus even if I get that 3/12 I will most likely have the roof sheathing hitting the bottom of the windo sill. I really have no idea how to addres that for flashing. I think its just a leak ready to happen if you ask me.

Have you considered placing ice and water shield over the entire roof? I am assuming that the 3/12 is for the roofing or is something else going on?

[Bodger]

Sorry I thought I going to have the day off and all of a sudden the gremlins attacked. No there would be no concern for the drywall dying in to low. Yes I would have to block them in. I was just wondering if I could get by with that massive of a cut, every inch is golden on this thing.

Plus even if I get that 3/12 I will most likely have the roof sheathing hitting the bottom of the windo sill. I really have no idea how to addres that for flashing. I think its just a leak ready to happen if you ask me.


Any time, and I mean every time, I have thought something would leak, it leaked.

[WarriorWithWood]

Cant you drop the wall height? Are you trying to match an existing ceiling or fascia?

[Bodger]

This is exactly why we need pics and vids, and this would be a good one to put on RC TV.

[Blue]

All great questions. Concrete shingles to match existing home. Wall is already dropped to 7' in the scenario given. 16 foot span on the field cut rafters so 2 x 8 no good. I haven't run the rafter length on the table but you all know its going to be 2x 12-12" OC. for those concrete shingles.

Yes to whoever asked Ice and Water. They will allow a 1/12 pitch with these shingles with IW, but HO worried about snow load in addition to the shingle load. So if I can get 3.....I want to get 3.

[WarriorWithWood]

can you get 3x material? How about dbl 2x6 or 8 for each rafter.

[WarriorWithWood]

or microlams?

[Blue]

can you get 3x material? How about dbl 2x6 or 8 for each rafter.

Never occured to me. Sounds like I would need a seal though on that. I thought about engineered stock like microlams but I don't work with them much for rafters. I will have to chack and see how you attach the plate.

[framer55]

Never occured to me. Sounds like I would need a seal though on that. I thought about engineered stock like microlams but I don't work with them much for rafters. I will have to chack and see how you attach the plate.
you could use I joists also. I bet you could get away with 9 1/2".

[Bodger]

you could use I joists also. I bet you could get away with 9 1/2".


2 X 6 with 1/4" steel flitch. ($$$$)

You getting inspected Blue?

[kevjob]

I have used LVL's and I joist for just this kind of stuff years ago. I had to have an engineer sign off on what we were doing but it passed and saved us from removing windows and getting new smaller ones.

[Blue]

2 X 6 with 1/4" steel flitch. ($$$$)

You getting inspected Blue?

Yep inspected. I have nearly an impossible task with this one. Right now job is on hold, due to the fact that the customer wants a footing removed on one side to give 12" more walkroom and doesn't want to pay my change order to do it. So its sitting excavated with trench footings and form just like you see in the pic in the current project thread. Rain is deteriating the site as we speak and soon water will be entering the structure as a result of having the excavation sit unfinished.

So I'm on my other job where I told my rep that I had a ceiling of 6k on some TimberTeck decking and the order went in Friday. The bill is for 9k. Both of these jobs haggled to get bottom prices from me so I'm stuck right now trying to figure how I can sneak out of town and start a new life as a car wash attendant.

[Bodger]

Yep inspected. I have nearly an impossible task with this one. Right now job is on hold, due to the fact that the customer wants a footing removed on one side to give 12" more walkroom and doesn't want to pay my change order to do it. So its sitting excavated with trench footings and form just like you see in the pic in the current project thread. Rain is deteriating the site as we speak and soon water will be entering the structure as a result of having the excavation sit unfinished.

So I'm on my other job where I told my rep that I had a ceiling of 6k on some TimberTeck decking and the order went in Friday. The bill is for 9k. Both of these jobs haggled to get bottom prices from me so I'm stuck right now trying to figure how I can sneak out of town and start a new life as a car wash attendant.


Lightning can sometimes strike and cause a fire.:laugh3:

[Blue]

Lightning can sometimes strike and cause a fire.:laugh3:

Thats fine, I'm calling my old siding salesman that I talked into going in business for himself 15 years ago and he just bought all his help brand new 3/4 ton chevies 6 of them with wraps and did over 5 mill last year for a job. I'll keep you all posted. He will prolly laugh at me but at the very least I'm going to make him give me my code book back that he borrowed for his contractor exam.

[Bodger]

Thats fine, I'm calling my old siding salesman that I talked into going in business for himself 15 years ago and he just bought all his help brand new 3/4 ton chevies 6 of them with wraps and did over 5 mill last year for a job. I'll keep you all posted. He will prolly laugh at me but at the very least I'm going to make him give me my code book back that he borrowed for his contractor exam.


I've worked off and on for the past couple of years for other contractors. It's like a vacation.
Or comedy camp, watching them go nuts dealing with HOs and flaky subs, and feeling glad it isn't me.

[Titanoman]

Too many variables, too many options: there is no 1/3-2/3 rule (you can take more than 1/3 for seat cut and have plenty left IF you're using 2x12, for example. But not with 2x8, for example); smaller facia + notch out top top plate (stack over studs, of course) will gain inches; go with 31/4 pitch; make window smaller; I can get much more technical if I knew what the non-variables are (i.e. must be 31/2 pitch because of shingles, can't
displace window, etc):)

[afkama]

Welcome to the forum.
If you get a chance post a little about yourself in the Intro section.
I used to live and work fairly close to you by the way - Just north of KC.

[Titanoman]

I'm the new guru in town. I have followed California building codes for half my life. I can build anything in my sleep. IF only 1/3 of your stock remains, or only a few inches remains (not true. I'm expressing a point here) hap, your fine IF you're only spanning a foot. Get it? The 1/3-2/3 thing is called a RULE OF THUMB. It is not a code anywhere. Variables determine choice of design, pursuant to UBC. As far as elevation of facial (drop due to deep seat-cut, like I already said, you could go with, say 2x4 instead of 2x6. It doesn't matter as you level-cut the bottom of the rafter accordingly (so you hit your head less or block your view less looking out a lower window or whatever). A couple inches here, a couple inches there (like I said, maybe a 31/4 pitch instead a 31/2, unless you need to match an existing pitch). Or drop your sheds wall heigth an inch or two. Or steel 1x3 rafters. Or...
I'm not here to knock another carpenter I don't even know, but you all don't have to run to Joe. Your project is extremely basic, but I can't see it. You need to tell me everything. Matching existing? Probably the number one need to know (roof or facia line?). Are there doors or windows under your new shed roof? How far are your rafters spanning? Etc, etc.

[Winchester]

hmmm... thought it was more than a rule of thumb. That's cool.

As far as notching goes 1/3 is code (at least here in the great white north)
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-EzU3YAK8MLA/TlII0IaWx4I/AAAAAAAACXw/CCdEqXqGEhk/s912/IMG_20110822_004338.jpg

However, there is a forum rule of thumb to press the enter key now and then and add some white space to make your posts more readable. :laugh4:

[framer55]

Glad you took the time to look it up.

i think it is more than a rule of thumb also, but too lazy to look it up>G<

[orson]

Blue, is there any chance the HO will go for dropping the roof line just in the area below the window?

Header off the rafters to either side of the window and change the pitch of the section of roof from the header to the wall below the window so the window cuts down into the roofline...

The second pic that loads at the top of this website is an example of what I mean, the windows were supposed to be above the roofline but the the Archy never considered the header depth.....so we cut the windows down into the roof:
http://www.ironvalley.com/home

[Bodger]

I can look it up, I'm certain I've seen the notching schedule stated as 1/3 or some other derivative in code books for LA.

[Winchester]

Blue, is there any chance the HO will go for dropping the roof line just in the area below the window?

Header off the rafters to either side of the window and change the pitch of the section of roof from the header to the wall below the window so the window cuts down into the roofline...

The second pic that loads at the top of this website is an example of what I mean, the windows were supposed to be above the roofline but the the Archy never considered the header depth.....so we cut the windows down into the roof:
http://www.ironvalley.com/home

This one??

[orson]

Ya Ryan, and thanks.... I couldn't figure out the link to the photo, and unlike you I was too lazy to screen capture, crop and post it. :mad2:

[WarriorWithWood]

Did you build this yet?

[Blue]

No. Customer would not agree to price of change order to increase the size of the room. Froze the permit and we agreed to a mutual amount for me to walk away.

[WarriorWithWood]

sounds kinda like a win win, did you have work to fill in?

[Blue]

Yep. But not awin. Would rather have the change but the relationship had deteriated to the point that she was unable to process rational thought. So im sure someone else got the nice change plus some.

Sent from my M865 using Tapatalk

[Titanoman]

I'm more exhausted listening to you all trying to build a shed roof then actually building it. Every region has local codes. Cali. builds to UBC. Cali and Florida have toughest codes in the nation. It's a molehill for crying out loud. Don't make it a mountain. Either make upper window smaller or fudge the pitch a little. Like I said. Why are you fighting the whole seat-cut height above plate thing. Leave all the meat you want. Just make the level of the seat 31/2 or 51/2 whatever your wall is. The homeowner isn't going to know if it's EXACTLY a 31/2-12! Neither is the inspector. Just do it. It's easy.

Sorry all. I want to be welcome here and I guess i'm blowing it. But all this talk about notching for the window and micros and simpsons. It can't be that difficult. Again, I apologize for any bad behavior. Good-night all.

[Winchester]

I'm more exhausted listening to you all trying to build a shed roof then actually building it.If it's so tiring why are you here?

Either make upper window smaller or fudge the pitch a little. Like I said. Why are you fighting the whole seat-cut height above plate thing. Leave all the meat you want. Just make the level of the seat 31/2 or 51/2 whatever your wall is. The homeowner isn't going to know if it's EXACTLY a 31/2-12! Neither is the inspector. Just do it. It's easy.
He can't "just do it" the project is over, the client wouldn't pay to play.

[Bodger]

I'm more exhausted listening to you all trying to build a shed roof then actually building it. Every region has local codes. Cali. builds to UBC. Cali and Florida have toughest codes in the nation. It's a molehill for crying out loud. Don't make it a mountain. Either make upper window smaller or fudge the pitch a little. Like I said. Why are you fighting the whole seat-cut height above plate thing. Leave all the meat you want. Just make the level of the seat 31/2 or 51/2 whatever your wall is. The homeowner isn't going to know if it's EXACTLY a 31/2-12! Neither is the inspector. Just do it. It's easy.

Sorry all. I want to be welcome here and I guess i'm blowing it. But all this talk about notching for the window and micros and simpsons. It can't be that difficult. Again, I apologize for any bad behavior. Good-night all.


Hey, who needs Joe Carola, we got another know-it-all framer azzhole right here! :laugh3::laugh3:

[framer55]

Hey, who needs Joe Carola, we got another know-it-all framer azzhole right here! :laugh3::laugh3:

I would say I resemble that, but I don't!

I like Joe though, what does that make me??

[Blue]

I would say I resemble that, but I don't!

I like Joe though, what does that make me??

Bodger would say you like a$$. I just say your friendly.:laugh3:

[Bodger]

I would say I resemble that, but I don't!

I like Joe though, what does that make me??


I got nothing against Joe, I think he's a dog nuts framer who really knows his stuff. He's just a little too heavy handed over on CT for my tastes. Ask a question about framing, get a lecture from Joe why you should already know the answer or you're a menace to the contracting industry at large. Then maybe he'll impart some useful info.

Kinda like this guy TitanMan, mountain out of a molehill, bla, bla, bla. That's why I quit CT altogether. Too much of that over there.

[framer55]

I got nothing against Joe, I think he's a dog nuts framer who really knows his stuff. He's just a little too heavy handed over on CT for my tastes. Ask a question about framing, get a lecture from Joe why you should already know the answer or you're a menace to the contracting industry at large. Then maybe he'll impart some useful info.

Kinda like this guy TitanMan, mountain out of a molehill, bla, bla, bla. That's why I quit CT altogether. Too much of that over there.

I know the feeling. At Breaktime several years ago I got reamed by Joe. We ad a discussion and smoothed it out, he can be a bit over the top at times.

I go to Ct everyday and read for a while and sometimes get sucked into some threads, but frankly, it is a lot more friendly over here....:)